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Milkman Dan said on October 7th, 2007 at 7:30 pm

Well goddammit, now I miss the Rhinoceros Parrty.

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I read this whole post with interest, as other forms of government do intrigue me somewhat. But, having said all that…

Time to hijack (Since I’m American and hijacking threads is what we do best)!

As opposed to right now, where if your local member is a useless, lying twat, you can just start up a petition for the recall procedure and – oh, right, that doesn’t exist. Ultimately, the only form of accountability we have is the next election. Is that good enough? Arguably not.

What’s wrong with waiting until the next election, unless said local member is actually committing crimes and not resigning? Recalls to me seem to just be a partisan tool to be used as a threat against elective governments.

Here in Michigan, because the income taxes are being raised (finally) so that we can pay our bills instead of cutting our government to the size of a postage stamp, there is the beginnings of an effort to recall members of the legislature and the governor. We had a 5 hour government shut down, and it almost went a lot longer because this recall was being threatened and the legislators were afraid to vote.

Basically what I’m trying to say is…why would the ability to recall the politician actually be a good thing?

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Linuxluver said on October 7th, 2007 at 9:48 pm

Great blog! I especially like the short, pithy and very effective responses to most of the NO (non) arguments.

Another NO argument I like is that “MMP will take the power away from voters and give it to parties.” This idiotic statement fails to understand that it is the PRESENT system that gives 100% of the power to ONE party that most people didn’t vote for! It also fails to understand that elections are the very mechanism by which voters DO confer their democratic power onto representatives they elect to act for them in the legislature.

Also…..all four major party leaders have no come out and said they will democratically choose their candidates. This is just a glimpse into the more responsive and accountable political world MMP will usher in of passed.

What shame it would be if the NO folks succeeded in using the cynicism people have about the present system to poison them against the ew one that would fix these very problems.

I also like your frank understanding that if MMP really was good for party bosses…..they wold be singing its praises…not trying to sick it. That, in a nutshell, says all that really needs to be said.

Amazing that so few people seem to be able to see that clearly.

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Eh, I’ve always favored the American system, where the executive is elected independently of the legislature. At least in principle. We have a distrust of government, so we like a system where the parts can oppose each other.

Not that we wouldn’t benefit from MMP, either. I like the idea of retaining some geographic responsibility (the ridings) and having some proportional representation as well, a hybrid system between pure representation like Italy and pure FPTP like North America.

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Aulayan:

Basically what I’m trying to say is…why would the ability to recall the politician actually be a good thing?

One of the features of the parliamentary system is the ability for individual MPs to “cross the floor” and switch parties with relative ease. It used to be rarer, but in the last few years it’s gotten more prevalent, and in a party-oriented system, voting for, say, a Liberal and then suddenly finding out you get a Tory instead is the essence of dishonest campaigning.

Rest assured I think any barometer for recall should be extremely high – but it should be present.

Greg:

h, I’ve always favored the American system, where the executive is elected independently of the legislature.

If there was a valid and useful recall procedure for the executive, maybe. But there isn’t. (The impeachment process for the Presidency is honestly something of a joke – convoluted and antidemocratic.)

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BlackMage said on October 8th, 2007 at 6:46 pm

I think it’s great that Ontario is finally getting rid of the ridiculous, antiquated first-past-the-post system. But from what I can tell, the number of proportional seats really aren’t enough to make a difference. In a first-past-the-post system, you will, unless you have a VERY stratified electorate, still have two parties winning most of the seats. In a two-party + system like you have in Canada, those two parties will still command enough popular support to win a lot of the proportional seats. So screaming ‘minority government!’ really isn’t much of a defence.

The Australian example is interesting in this regard. Our Senate is proportionately elected, while our House is instant runoff voting. Whereas our House is almost entirely dominated by two parties, the Senate is GENERALLY in minority, but not always (like, for example, now). Any party that gets elected to the Senate has to either command a substantial proportion of the vote or it needs to get preferences (which is to say, second choice, third choice…) from pretty much everyone. Any party that can get THAT many votes, or is not-objectionable enough to get preferences from the majors, is going to reasonably pragmatic and centrist.

Well, except the Greens. They’re looney.

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Thanks for this. I just moved to Ontario before the election started, and I’ve been looking for a good explanation of what this incarnation of MMP will do in the wild.

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MGK: In a four-year term, with eighteen months spent campaigning, there’s not a lot of room for a president to be awful enough to change the mind of his supporters to get a recall movement started. That’s certainly the situation we’re in now; people are going to wait out the fifteen months or so he’s going to be in office.

(Now, it is certainly the case that Bush was obviously awful if you were paying attention from before 9/11, but if there’s anything we’ve learned in the new millennium, it’s that Americans don’t pay attention to politics.

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Canadian Pension Plan said on October 12th, 2007 at 1:41 am

Great post about The Obscure Legislative Analysis Post That Is Necessary And Quite Possibly Dull!

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