“Lord Vetinari is subtly training Sam Vimes to be the next Patrician.”
versus
“Lord Vetinari is subtly training Moist von Lipwig to be the next Patrician.”
Discuss.
Also: Hobbes. Magic tiger or imaginary friend?
Top comment: Wait… Hobbes wrote Leviathan?? Then he IS real!! — Al
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RE: Hobbes.
The most logical answer is “both”. Duh.
Moist.
If nothing else, Vimes could never get popular support. Yes, people like him as a copper, but try putting him in charge and all the “Stoneface” talk starts up again.
However, Vetinari is trying to broaden Vimes’s horizons, and extend his view of the Disc beyond Ankh-Morpork. This is more out of an understanding that coppers, especially Knights Commander of the Watch, need to know more than just how to chase down unregistered thieves and murderers.
Definitely Moist. As for the Hobbes question, I have to agree, the answer is yes.
Wait, are we playing by Calvinball rules?
Dan Brown’s response leads me to believe that the writer of Angels & Demons has read Morrison’s “Batman R.I.P.”, specifically Bat-Mite’s line that “Imagination IS the fifth dimension”.
I think he was trying for Vimes, but gradually came to realise he’d never accept the position, and then Moist turned up…
Thank you, MGK, I am now imagining Sam and Moist’s interactions post-succession. Oh, wow.
(Another point of evidence: the process of getting Moist into power would be far more Discworldly. I imagine he would simply leave a will naming Moist “interim patrician” for until a council of guilds or whatever can agree on a real one. since they cannot agree on a flavour of canape this should stretch long enough for everyone to get used to the guy already.)
He’s training both. A man like Vetinari always has a backup plan. There are probably a couple of ‘heirs’ that have yet to be introduced.
I used to think it was the former. Then I realized that the Patrician doesn’t do anything for just one reason. He may or may not be prepping Vimes, but he is also using Vimes, because he makes a very good stick with which to get people back in line.
A stick that comes with his own Carrot.
Zifnab: ‘Calvinball Rules’ is an oxymoron, you know.
With all the modernization going on, Vetinari is probably ready to do away with the Patrician being the One Man with the One Vote. I think he’s setting up to follow his resignation with an election. He will, of course, instruct Moist to run, set Vimes up so he’s sure to run, and then get ready to step back.
I forsee the ballot being:
1: Moist
2: Vimes
3: Cappin Carot (“Had my name changed by deed poll!”)
4: A Wizard (possibly The Dean, he seems like he might think he’d enjoy high office)
5: A Human Specist (Anhkh-Morporkian Human Party, or suchlike — BNP-alike)
3: Cappin Carot (”Had my name changed by deed poll!”)
Perfect! Absolutely Perfect!
Moist, certainly. Vimes is too much a copper through and through. He’d cheerfully drop everything in a delicately running city planning session to chase down a crook. Moist, on the other hand, is just as much a conniving bastard as Vetinari is, if not as well honed.
Moist. But I think that he’s training Vimes to keep him in line.
This is, of course, assuming that Carrot doesn’t become King/Patrician/President of the new Democratic Free City of Ankh-Morpok, with Moist and Vimes on his side.
The answer to both questions is, in fact, “Both.”
What kind of Patrician would Venitari be if he weren’t plotting against himself?
Hobbes is neither an imaginary friend or a magical tiger.
“Dan Brown’s response leads me to believe that the writer of Angels & Demons has read Morrison’s “Batman R.I.P.”, specifically Bat-Mite’s line that “Imagination IS the fifth dimension” ”
Correct! I was just going put “Imagination is the 5th dimension”, but didn’t want to be that blatant.
I’m going with neither. They’re both part of Vetinari’s ongoing project to rebuild Ankh-Morpork in his image before he dies.
Vimes has turned out to be a useful tool for the city’s security. He (with Carrot’s help) rebuilt the city’s broken police force into a system that actually works, and has similarly repaired the city’s standing internationally. Moist serves a similar purpose domestically – rebuilding civic projects that have gone to pot under previous regimes to stabilize the city and improve its fortunes.
I suspect that Vetinari is attempting to build a system such that Ankh-Morpork won’t NEED another Patrician after he’s dead, as long as a suitable mostly powerless figurehead can be placed in the Oblong Office to give people the sense that someone is in charge. He wants the city to survive and thrive without him, because he knows how easy it would be for another crazy bastard to drive the city right back into the ground after all the effort he’s put in to rescuing it.
I have no opinion whatsoever!
Okay, I now agree with Jer.
In the early books it was implicit that Carrot may choose to “reveal” himself at some point and take command, should Vetenari err in some way.
Men At Arms has a little moments wheres its implied Vimes might be considered the next Patrician. He is now a duke and the guilds dont get along, Vimes could be seen as a honest bastards everyone dislikes but would keep things going. But Vimes is probably too moral a choice.
Carrot accepting his throne at this point would sort of undermine his character.
Moist, on the other hand needs chaos and Vetenari always describes ruling A-M as just that. He would seem the perfect successor in many ways, but it would be interesting to see how he got the role. Maybe with a little help from Vimes and Carrot and a few others, sort of seeing how even in death Vetenari has everything arranged.
Who says Calvin isn’t the imaginary one?
Oooh. Either way, you just know that whoever Vetinari picks will desperately not want to do it, but won’t be able to leave.
Unless he picks someone so terrible that they get immediately overthrown. I can’t keep up with any manipulative schemes.
I think the Calvin and Hobbes creator once said it was neither.
“Also: Hobbes. Magic tiger or imaginary friend?”
He’s an imaginary character…. Aren’t they all?
I’d say Moist, mostly because he’s much younger. Vimes is about the same age as Vetenari.
I’ve never read a Discworld book. So, in true internet message board style, I’d have to say its definitely the latter.
Neither are being set up to be the next Patrician. Vimes is too much of a copper at heart to do the wrong thing for the right reason, and Moist is too much of a con artist to do the right thing for the right reason. A city without the Patrician will need someone willing to do both–and in the meantime, they both make for great tools to help bring the city to life.
Pratchett’s been hinting at a “city as lifeform” concept for a while now. It seems the ideal goal is a city that needs neither Vetinari, Moist, nor Vimes to run smoothly–or, barring that, one that can put a Moist-like person and a Vimes-like person in the wrong place at the right time when the Patrician no longer has that capacity.
As far as Hobbes goes: Yes.
Vimes is my favorite character in all the
Discworld. I would like to marry Sam Vimes. He would not last twenty minutes as Patrician. His mind simply does not work that way.
Moist is clearly better suited to be Patrician…but he’ll have to change that awful name.
Frankly, I can’t bear the thought of Lord Vetinari not being Patrician. (I’ve always seen and heard Alan Rickman in my mind’s eye.) As for what’s going on with Pratchett in real life–well, I can’t really bear the thought of that either.
I’ve actually been thinking about getting into this Discworld stuff. What’s a good entry-level book?
Dan Brown: the books aren’t each chronological, but there are a few ‘storylines’ or characters that sets of books follow? So you might start with something like ‘Guards! Guards!’, the first Vimes book – or ‘Mort’, the first Death & co book, or ‘Wyrd Sisters’, the first* Lancre Witches book. (I actually just jumped right into the middle with Soul Music and Jingo and it worked fine, but it’s up to you. c: )
*Right, yes, okay, Granny Weatherwax is in Equal Rites first, but you know, it’s not really a Lancre Witches book.
@Joysweeper: I think the Calvin and Hobbes creator once said it was neither.
As I recall it, what he said was that he was going to let the readers decide for themselves, and he sure wasn’t going to let Dakin or some other plush-maker decide for them.
Neither. Vimes is a strong tool with one major use, and Moist is an adaptable tool with multiple various uses, but neither is a Vetinari.
Neither is a toolmaker.
(Dan Brown: I own them all, and I’d say the easiest chain to use to get into the books would be the ‘Vimes and the City’ sequence, starting with Guards! Guards!.)
I’m with the “both, but probably Moist” crowd.
Basically, Vimes is a reliable tool. Vetinari uses him to keep the city running smoothly, and knows he could keep the city running, more or less, even after Vetinari himself died. However, Moise could actually run the city.
Moreover, Vimes and Vetinari are both about the same age. Vimes is a former alcoholic turned moderately heavy smoker, with a brutally dangerous lifestyle. Moist is a healthy young man. And yeah, Moist makes enemies, but he’s almost as good at evading them as Vimes is. So Moist simply has a better chance of surviving to succeed.
And yeah, I’m also in the group that thinks Vetinari will set up elections, with Moist persuaded to run (and then unable, despite his best efforts, to lose. Anoia wants him to win, after all).
Ooh!
Dear Grant Morrison,
Please write a story in which Hobbes is revealed to be a fifth-dimensional imp, and that all of Calvin’s “fantasies” are actually real things Hobbes is subjecting him to with his reality-warping powers.
Also, Hobbes’ real name should be Blwttrsn.
Your pal,
-Justin
Originally, the Patrician relied on his Assassins Guild training to keep himself alive; Vimes (but not Moist) is similarly equipped in that respect, as Men at Arms emphasized.
However, it is quite arguable that, since The Truth, the Guard is nearly sufficient to keep the Patrician alive; it may be that the officeholder no longer needs direct survival skills.
Thus, we may consider the likelihood that the Patrician had been preparing Vimes for the office (while using him to keep the city running), but has switched to preparing Moist, because the required skill set has changed. This has also enabled him to retask Vimes more closely within Vimes’ own competence (which is to solve crimes; annoy people that Ankh-Morpork benefits from annoying; and to show people who’d work well with Ankh-Morpork that they’d do well working with Ankh-Morpork).
Clearly, Hobbes is Vetinari’s choice for the next Patrician.
(I can’t believe nobody beat me to this one in over thirty comments.)
Also: Hobbes. Magic tiger or imaginary friend?
Neither, but he is undoubtedly both an imaginary tiger and a magical friend. Suzy gets this.
Why do people think there will be elections? There seems to be almost to democratic push in Morpork from any section of society. Most people on the disc seem to prefer some form of absolute ruler who doesn’t interfere with everyday life. Laws and politics seem to be held to account by stagnent traditions and vested interests of traditional bodies, creating an inflexible and rigid way of ruling.
Further both Vetinari and Vimes have dismissed democracy. Vetinari describes it as an idiot system, because any idiotcy or maliciousness by politicians is ultimatly the elctorates fault, whereas despots have to answer for there own actions, requiring them to THINK. Vimes has also said he is against any system which would give the Nobby Nobbs’ of the world a vote (I admit this just shows that he’s against UNIVERSAL SUFFERIDGE, rather than an elected system).
Also would Moist be allowed to run Morpork, what with him being a foreigner?
Hobbes was an imaginary friend, but when you have an imagination as vivid as Calvin’s then you begin to take on a life and acompanying reality of your own.
Tantalus, one of the major points about Ankh-Morpork is that it’s a melting pot. Its culture is universal, its citizenship is undefined. Moist lives in Ankh-Morpork, therefore he is Morporkian. He was born outside the city, therefore he can appeal to the massive immigrant population.
As to why democracy — what’s the alternative? Traditionally, government in Ankh-Morpork is passed on by assassination. The Patrician isn’t going to allow that. He’s also not going to allow the guilds to just pick someone stupid and easily manipulated to ruin the city he’s devoted so much time to. What does that leave? Pretty much just choosing his successor, which the people simply wouldn’t like.
The solution — create the illusion of democracy. The guilds have to accept the will of the people (after all, they know their candidate won — they stuffed the ballot boxes themselves), the people know their guy won, and the unfortunate new ruler knows he has a mandate from the people.
The fact that Vetinari would have arranged the whole thing, ballot-stuffing included, is irrelevant. Everyone thinks the right guy is in charge, and Vetinari knows it for a fact.
But there isn’t a concept in that world that democracy bestows any more legitimatcy then killing your predecessor or having an unusual birthmark. Most of the population is abivolent to politics, there is also widespread illiteracy and the state and it’s running play virtually no part in most peoples lives ( at least to them it doesn’t) and don’t really care who runs things or how they got their power.
The only people who actually care about the actual person are the nobility and guild heads, exactly the people who would view any formal system of appointment (perticually one which put them in a minority) as a threat to their ability to appoint and them hold sway over the candidate.
In retrospect, I don’t know.
When I was younger, though, I had assumed that Hobbes was basically real, but had the ability to change into stuffed animal form when it was time for the parents to hand out the blame.
I’d always assumed that Hobbes was who he was perceived as. Calvin knew he was a real live tiger. Everyone else *knew* that *couldn’t* be a real live tiger and so they saw a stuffed one.
Vetinari isn’t training either of them to run the city the way he wants it run. He’s training the city to run itself.
I’ve been in the ‘Moist’ crowd for a while now, but all this talk of the city being taught to run itself has me thinking. To start, not only couldn’t Vimes take the Patrician’s place, he wouldn’t – he can barely stand going to formal functions as a duke, much less ruler.
Moist, on the other hand, has the people skills and the duplicity needed to keep Morpork a) running and b) safe (from the big threats – Vimes is around for all the stuff that doesnt include outright war). Moist is a manipulative little shit, but he DOES have standards – kind of like Han Solo, almost.
Frankly, I don’t think either would make a good successor. Vimes is too much a copper, Moist too much a con artist. If we get another Watch book, I’m expecting/hoping for some Carrot/Vimes conflict. Sir Terry’s been hinting at it for a while, and it seems inevitable, considering both of their ancestries.
Moist is being trained to be the next Patrician.
Vimes is being trained to arrest, try, and execute the next Patrician if it turns out he’s more like the old Patricians than like Vetinari. Because Vetinari knows better than to think he can actually train someone to care about the interests of everyone in the city. He can find someone who he thinks has that capacity, and train him to do everything else, but there’s a chance he might be wrong. That’s where Vimes comes in. He won’t stand for that, and he can’t be bullied, threatened, or intimidated.
And Hobbes is imaginary. Frankly, by the end of the strip’s run, I was thinking someone should cram golfball-sized doses of Ritalin down Calvin’s throat. It was cute for a couple of years, but seriously, kid’s fucking psycho. 🙂
Vetinari is just Vimes’ imaginary friend.
Vimes’s role from Vetinari’s point of view is spelled out in Nanny Ogg’s Cookbook, in which Vetinari, after an excruciating description of food tasting and avoiding poisons even with bread and water, summed up his own method:
1. Arrange the politics of the country over a period of years so that poisoning you will be more trouble than it is worth and interfere with the private ambitions of too many people just at the moment.
2. Make sure that there are among the city’s civil service some unpredictable men who will consider your poisoning a personal insult against them, and generally cause a lot of fuss.
3. Then eat what you please.
Vimes is #2, above, not a successor.
… what?
RE: the comment above about Alan Rickman as Vetinari:
He’s an excellent choice, although a bit obvious. My personal choice is John Turturro.
I’m tempted to be snarky and say that Adora will be the next Patrician, but if I’m choosing between Vimes and Moist, then I’d say Moist.
Honestly, Adora would be a pretty good idea. It’s probably Moist though; Vetinari is definitely working on Vimes, but Vimes is at his best within a power structure and on the streets, and Vetinari knows that. Simply put, Vimes is too good a copper to waste running the city, even if he could do the job (he couldn’t, not really), and even if he would accept it in the first place (he wouldn’t, not ever).
Moist however has nowhere better to be than on top and making up the rules as he plays. Vimes is more fun to read, and I have no doubt that Vetinari would give him provisional command of the city in a martial law type situation (as much as that’d be possible in AM), but Moist is the only one who could fill Vetinari’s shoes, so to speak.
well, one thing that is important to think about is ‘is vetinari dying’.
keep in mind that when vimes was talking to the vampire in ‘the fifth elephant’ she asked vimes how old is vetinari. vimes said ‘oh, i don’t know, about my age i guess’, at which point she ended the conversation abruptly.
what does that mean.
we know that vetinari had met her before. but why the topic of his age?
also we know from ‘night watch’ that vetinari is roughly the same age as vimes, why would that make any difference?
collin
The next Patrician must
1.Have the ability to charm people into believing this is what they want whilst giving them what they need.
2.Understand that political manoeuvrings and open warfare is the same. I.e know when to apply violence as opposed to when to imply it.
3.Have an intelligence support structure of highly effective sources (connected and protected)
4. Able to exploit any fleeting disadvantages of present adverse situations in an instant.
5. Must be charismatic. People will believe in him/her even when mistakes are made and especially when they know better.
6. Ensure that a world without you will definitely be more troublesome. Make sure people know this.
7. Know where all the bodies are buried, processed and otherwise interred. Preferably because you put them there whether or not you actually did. Again people should know this
8. Be ruthless, unpredictable and entertaining in your methods.
9. Be incredibly difficult to kill. The very idea should considered ludicrous.
10. Ensure all your enemies hate each other more than you.
11. Be self assured.
12. Know thy enemies (Everyone who isn’t you).
13. Be practical(An essential survival skill).
14. Use people to the greatest effect.
Should a person achieve these objectives he/she will become Patrician regardless of Vetinari’s wishes or even if the Patrician no longer exists. i.e Vetinari is King and there will always be a King even if the title is not formally recognized. (Carrot the legal heir but Vetinari is the effective monarchy).
So far the closest candidate to these objectives is Harry King.
Actually, having the King of the Golden River take up the office of the patrician would be really cool, and just unexpected enough to be really fun.
I have died and gone to Internet heaven; I never seen such a group of people spending time and brain power on anything about Prattchet’s work.
But enough fawning!
My opinion agrees with those believing that Vimes is too good a copper to actually be Patrician. He has always had a huge problem with being around high society, and is far more comfortable near the street, and near the actual action, to be pulled in a permanent desk job wielding that much responsibility. And, this is the kicker, Vetinari knows this.
Moist, on the other hand, is too much of a catalyst to have a permanent desk job; I’m willing to bet that Vetinari is going to move him to every single facet of government and public service, like the Post Office and the Banks in the last books, until he fixes everything, or Moist kicks the bucket.
So, I’m willing to bet the heir to A.M. would be Carrot; he’s an upstanding citizen, he knows EVERYONE, he’s willing to make tough decisions, and Vetinari knows this. Prattchet himself even mentions the possibility of the series moving in that direction in the Paul Kidby art-book (which really brings the characters to life by the way).
That being said, I agree that the idea of Harry King would be on the right side of crazy in terms of the Discworld books.
Also, Hobbes is real. No argument. Every child who’s ever had a Hobbes-like friend knows this.
Have no idea what the first question is about, and Hobbes is an imaginary friend, which was kind of the whole point of the series. No magic necessary.
A friend of mine drew a photorealistic picture of a tiger walking with her cubs. One of the cubs is looking to the side at his imaginary human boy. I need to get it scanned some day.
I’m really, really, really trying to imagine a Patrician other than Vetinari… All that comes out is “ERROR! Does not compute.”
But after reading all of the previous comments, then the choice should be obvious: The next Patrician can only be… John Turturro!
Or Hobbes. I’d vote for Hobbes.
Alright, I’ll try and hunt down a copy of “Guards, Guards!”. I bought “The Last Hero” at Half-Price Books, but I haven’t gotten a chance to look at it yet. I also saw a Discworld movie, “The Hogfather”, at the video store. Is it any good?
On the question of Hobbes, one would have to ask how an imaginary friend would then tie up its “owner”. Bearing in mind this was done while the “owner” was in a chair, he was tied from behind and the wrists were specially bound. Oh, and tight enough to make Calvin’s dad wonder how it was done at all.
Hobbes has more reality than merely a figment of whimsy.
Dan Brown: Last Hero is wayyyy late in the series, so it’s good, but it might not do much for you. “Hogfather” is, uh, particularly British/BBC in its production, so in COMBINATION with Pratchett, you’ve got both to consider. If you LIKE that sort of thing already, you may dig it. If you’re iffy, wait until you know if you like Pratchett.
Also, I’m surprised no one’s suggested this yet:
Zombie Vetinari.
(or vampire, I suppose, with the prior relationship with Margalotta out there.)
Was considering who else might work as Patrician, and thought of Granny Weatherwax. Although there are obvious problems such as age and not, y’know, actually living in Ankh-Morpork, she’d be an interesting choice. Then I started wondering; have she and Vetinari ever met?
Another option:
Golems are powered by words, and specially prepared to do tasks for millennia.
Vetinari is modifying the city fairly heavily for a massive undertaking.
The largest repository of magical documents?
In Ankh-Morpok.
Between that and the recent Golem standard…
My word Bret. That is amazing. I never thought of that.
Hey. You’ve drawn a lurker out of the woodwork.
Vetinari has never been the sort to have only one plan. He could have people he’s been working on who’ve only appeared in the background.
He toyed with elections back in “Feet of Clay.” At least that’s how I thought of the picture he drew of a crown wearing man composed of many other men.
Equinox’s point about tool makers is well taken. Moist did try to redirect that forger in “Making Money.” (I thought the golem standard was a cop out. Most of the book about going to a fiat currency and then just replace backing with something else.)
Let me enter a dark horse: Mr. de Worde. He is prominent, knows all the players, has a good reputation, and will do his duty. Unlike Moist, Vimes, and King, he’ll be welcomed by the still prominent old families. I don’t see him being a glorious, manipulative bastard, but there’s a difference between transforming the city and running it afterward. A point Pratchett has Vimes keep visiting: people like tomorrow to be just like yesterday.
While we’re talking Discworld politics, anyone know who is running Sto Lat while Susan is off teaching children?
Pratchett has been asked that question about Moist, since a lot of people read the two Moist books as him being pointed towards Patrician. Pratchett said nope, he wasn’t intending any such thing.
That doesn’t mean he won’t change his mind later, but he wasn’t deliberately writing it.
I suspect it’ll be Moist, simply because Vimes and Vetinari are too close in age; if it were Vimes the city would have the same problem all over again in a few years.
Now, here’s a thing I’ve been thinking about: Young Sam and Magrat’s daughter are quite close in age. Magrat’s daughter is, technically, a princess. Who could Young Sam fall for to ensure his father gets as infuriated as humanly possible…?
At least that’s how I thought of the picture he drew of a crown wearing man composed of many other men.
The crowned man composed of many other men was an illustration in the first edition of Thomas Hobbes’ Leviathan, a classic of political philosophy which argues for the necessity of an absolute ruler in order for society to function.
Also, Susan is the duchess of Sto Helit, not Sto Lat. /nitpick
Wait… Hobbes wrote Leviathan?? Then he IS real!!
In addition to the Leviathan reference, Vetinari’s doodle was probably also a musing on, or clue to Vimes about, the nature of the Golem King.
As for the original question: personally, I’m rooting for Lord Julius.
Farmar said: Also, Susan is the duchess of Sto Helit, not Sto Lat. /nitpick
Oops. What I get for going from memory.
My knee-jerk reaction is that he started grooming Vimes to be his replacement and it became obvious that it’d never work out for a number of reasons so he decided to use Sam for other things. He then decided to develop Moist as a successor.
Vetinari isn’t REALLY trying to fix the city anymore. He’s trying to leave it just broken enough that people need him. That – and the threat of Vimes’ vengeance – is a rather large part of why he’s still alive. When he IS gone then it’ll be just broken enough that it keeps Moist occupied. Moist gets restless when he isn’t challenged and running AM is the ultimate challenge.
Plus Moist could probably become a historical first for AM. He’ll be the leader that stays in power because people like him (in spite of himself) instead of staying in power because people dislike the idea of the city without him.
Of course, given the writer’s Alzheimer’s, Havelock will remain in charge for the remainder of the series anyway.
Oh, and Hobbes is real to Calvin and that’s all that matters.
thanks Beacon, thanks ALOT.
Those questions are silly.
A. Calvin is a Time Lord in training. Hobbes is only as real as Calvin wants him to be, which can be pretty damn real (eg. the aforemantioned tying to a chair incident.)
B. Vetinari is preparing *himself* to be his own successor. As long as… differently vital people such as Dragon King Of Arms exist in Ankh-Morpork, I’d say that the current Patrician would be willing to do everything in anyone’s power to remain a force in his city. And if it means accepting a vampire’s kiss, being too bloody-minded to die or *perhaps* learning how to take over a golem’s body (Yeah, noone ever considers the benefits of a Patrician with an immortal and nigh-indestructible body that doesn’t need to eat, sleep or breathe. And Adora’s efforts to bring as many golems to Ankh-Morpork as possible would yield a lot of test subjects…)