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mygif

Sometimes I really want to find new hobbies, where I would never feel like misogyny is a requirement to fit in.

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LashLightning said on November 18th, 2012 at 2:56 pm

FUCK! I’m reading Starman for the first time, enjoyed Ex Machina thoroughly, and now it turns out the artist is practically a Male Rights Activist!

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William Burns said on November 18th, 2012 at 3:43 pm

LashLightning,

It could be worse. You could be a Justiniano fan.

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Heksefatter said on November 18th, 2012 at 3:53 pm

I could barely pull myself together to shake my head at people who believe that anyone (male or female) could be of insufficient geekitude to attend a con. That FB post, by a grown man, able to function enough in society to hold a job, has left me in something approaching shock.

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mygif

Ive never been to a Con but i always assumed that the point was that it was a place where the misfits could go to fit in?
This whole thing would have made a lot more sense if he was bitching about the women who are HIRED to walk around all day dressed as
Princess Peach or whatever the kids today are into. I fail to see the motive for “normal” women to infiltrate a Con for any reason other the wanting to be thier. Wheres the payoff? Frankly Id have assumed that those places would be the last place women would want to be, surronded by a flock of sweaty nerds. The times they are a changin.

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mygif

I remember when geeks were ashamed of themselves, and would never even think of discussing things like this, let alone use terms like “geek cred” — even ironically.

Can we go back to those days, please?

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Mitchell Hundred said on November 18th, 2012 at 4:27 pm

One of my main problems with Ex Machina was that Harris drew pretty much all the female characters with large busts. I haven’t read it in a while, so there might be one or two exceptions I’m forgetting, but on the whole that seemed to be the rule. It’s a pity, because the art is otherwise quite well done and the story is excellent (obviously I find the protagonist particularly fascinating). But it had always seemed to me like he had some problems with women. Knowing this doesn’t change my opinion of the series or his work, but it is disheartening to know that there are still assholes like this out there.

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mygif

@LashLightning:

Eh, I’d say don’t buy the work if you have moral issues with the creator, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with separating the value and pleasure you can derive from a work from your opinions about the creator of the work. Orson Scott Card is a hateful bigot, who is wrong on essentially everything, but Ender’s Game has some moments of beauty in it and remains one of my favorite books of all time. Roman Polanski’s a rapist who should be in jail, but that doesn’t detract from the majesty that is “Chinatown.”

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mygif

Sure, entertainment centered conventions were and are designed to help enthusiasts get together, meet in person, and shop for things that are hard or impossible to find in their home location. But the problem is that when you gather in a fortress of your own quirks, it’s easy to adopt a siege mentality when many people are happy to leave you be for a weekend.

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mygif

*starts up Cool Runnings style slow clap for John Seavey and his illusion squirrels*

Y’know, I remember when I was young and I was of the idea that if someone didn’t know a piece of general trivia about a geek subject they should be ignored and shunned…

But before I even got to starting to practice this belief, my Left Brain immediately told my Right Brain to shut its lobe-hole and just be nice to people. I am so damn thankful for that.

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mygif

Personally I am just happy there are women interested in the things I like and that I no longer feel like I need to hide my hobbies. The fact that some decent looking women dress up like some of my favorite comic characters is just a bonus. I don’t understand where there is some kind of downside to this or why I am supposed to subject these awesome women to a purity test.

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mygif

The thing that gets me is that it shouldn’t really matter if this crowd exists or not. Even if there are girls who go to cons solely because they enjoy getting attention while dressed up as a scantily clad character – or because they enjoy being paid money for the role of ‘booth babe’… in what universe does that mean they have less right to be at the convention than anyone else?

Are they harming anyone with their presence? Ok, I admit that I’m not a fan of the booth babe phenomenon itself, and the goal of using sexy ladies to sell unrelated comics/video games/etc. But the problem there is with the industry that makes use of such practices and the fan base that embraces them, not with the models themselves.

And as far any women who visit cons just to dress up in costumes and bask in the attention of other con-goers… if it happens, what of it? They are going to a convention in order to enjoy themselves. If that enjoyment takes the form of social interaction and the minor sense of celebrity of being asked to pose for pictures… is that somehow stealing fun away from those who are there to bask in shared fan-trivia, or browse dealer’s rooms for old titles, or attend panels, or meet artists, or whatever other goals someone has?

The convention is not somehow only ‘reserved’ for ‘true fans’. There are countless different reasons for one to attend. If someone has paid to attend the convention and is not actively harassing other attendees or causing problems, then they have just as much right to be there as anyone else.

If you find someone’s presence to be a personal insult because you consider them a poseur or fake? Too bad. That is simply one of the inevitable hazards of a convention – with that many people gathered in one place, there may well be folks there who you aren’t a fan of. The truth is, I’ve met plenty of folks are cons who I didn’t especially care for – but their level of geek-cred was rarely a factor in the equation.

So in the end, it doesn’t matter whether these ‘fake geek girls’ exist or not. Even if they do, they aren’t violating some law of the universe by attending a convention and enjoying themselves in a fashion that someone disapproves of.

There is no ‘geek trivia entrance exam’ required to attend a convention, nor is there a select list of activities that one is permitted to enjoy while attending.

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mygif

Thank you for a very well written and reasoned essay. It is a ridiculous attitude for some of these guys. Somehow, they think that seeing an attractive young woman dressed as the Scarlet Witch means that she is going to have sex with them…and boys, it ain’t gonna happen.

So naturally, it’s HER fault.

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mygif

“Somehow, they think that seeing an attractive young woman dressed as the Scarlet Witch means that she is going to have sex with them…and boys, it ain’t gonna happen.

So naturally, it’s HER fault.”

That’s the key, to me. That’s the ONLY thing that makes responses like Harris’s make sense. The only way anyone could see the interaction as a net loss is if they went into it assuming they were going to get laid, and didn’t. If I’m being uncharitable, I assume that the male party to the interaction assumed that the interaction would proceed as follows:
M: [obscure trivia about character F is dressed as]
F: (swoons)
(sex ensues)
And when they realized that knowing obscure trivia didn’t score them any points, they felt betrayed.

And honestly, I can see why those interactions are more common now. At least in the geek circles I’ve traveled in, there was a time when many women did feel uncomfortable going to large events in “racy type stuff” unless they had people they knew were going to stick with them and keep them safe. That seems to be less the case now. So now we are in a phase of education, I guess. I’m just surprised that so many people are willing to so publicly take the obviously wrong side on this.

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mygif

Even if these mythical faux geek girls exist, and they are as predatory as people assume they are, what real harm are they doing? Are these guys somehow going to get less laid if they’re there? And I’m sorry, but if you go to a convention and start buying stuff for someone in the hopes of getting sex and it fails, that’s on you, mate. If you were either inclined to work out or in any way interesting and not creepy as shit, you might have succeeded. Stop reading your Mystery books and grow a damned personality.

And even if these women are real, and they are devastating nerds left and right, I’d gladly tolerate a dozen of them if it meant that the next Gail Simone or Kelly Sue DeConnick doesn’t get scared out of the hobby by some assclown.

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Pantsless Pete said on November 18th, 2012 at 6:51 pm

I think we’d all be happier and avoid situations like this if we just acknowledged that Lady Nerds are just as terrible and socially broken as Dude Nerds.

The assumption that the girl nerds in question do not belong here seems to stem from the idea that they are not terrible like the rest of us.

They are.

They are terrible.

Terrible in different ways in most cases but still just really awful.

In some cases, such as fandoms involving an attractive character, they are significantly worse.

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mygif

Eh, you could make a case for any of the three original trilogy movies being the best, but it’s cool to learn about which one is someone’s favorite.

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mygif

I think you are right about the “fake geek girls” situation you describe, I’ve been the bodyguard at the con (Step away from the fairy, sir.), and I can only agree that there are a lot of socially inept geeks with feelings of entitlement out there who feel that they should have a cheat code with a girl in geeky costume.

On the other hand, I have seen a small but growing niche of “geeky” starlets, ranging from up and comers to outright pornstars, who are cynically deciding that there is money to be made pandering to geeks.

The bra & panties & dice photos, or dressing up as April O’neil to shoot a porno, or talking constantly about “being a total gamer, and that’s why you should watch my web series”.

Maybe it’s just an outgrowth of booth babe culture, but the whole thing discourages me. You want to call yourself a geek, fine, welcome, but don’t just grab that label so you can market yourself. Dive in, make it meaningful.

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mygif

“Maybe it’s just an outgrowth of booth babe culture, but the whole thing discourages me. You want to call yourself a geek, fine, welcome, but don’t just grab that label so you can market yourself. Dive in, make it meaningful.”

Except as John Scalzi said to Joe Peacock and to geeks at large, you are not the arbiter of geekdom. One person’s “cynical panderer” is another person’s perfectly acceptable geek. By which set of standards are we supposed to be judging someone’s geek quotient? Yours? Mine? Tony Harris’?

I’m not trying to say that you yourself are attempting to actively be exclusionary here…except, well, that’s SORT of what you’re doing when you start trying to draw a line between “us, the REAL geeks” and “them, the shallow, cynical attention-seekers.” That’s what people in the Scalzi comments section are doing too which is what John Seavey pointed out, going “Oh no no no, I don’t mean you, geek ladies, you’re perfectly fine, I mean these OTHER people over here that are faking it, they’re the ones I’m talking about.”

But the truth is that there is no good way to determine who is a cynical attention-seeker and who is merely a genuinely geeky attention-seeker, and trying to label people as “fake geeks” results in a lot of people, mainly women in this case, being told that they don’t belong in a hobby they actually want to be a part of.

That’s the problem. Stop trying to draw that line. Even if you have the best intentions in the world, just don’t do it.

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mygif

I’ll be blunt I don’t like the way geek guys are talked about online. Same as with so called “nice guys.” Ever heard the word “wooing” people. That’s all so many of these actions you’re condemning are, on the trying to get with women front.

And on the “geek girl” thing, besides the whole geeks are pissed off because they don’t get sex thing I think there are some issues you’re overlooking, stereotypes that some might apply to women.

1. Women like pretty things.

2. Women like romances

3. The people who produce shows will change things to increase their audience.

Geeks are known to prefer things as they are OR as they WERE, so welcoming in people that would encourage change doesn’t seem like something that would be expected. A lot of early sci-fi can be pretty cheesy or have shoddy special effects.

I’m not a con-goer, nothing about them strikes me as appealing. But as weird as I think they are I think dressing up in a costume because you like a character is, I think dressing up in a certain costume because you like costumes seems much weirder to me.

Things like catchphrases are meant to be popular and talked about. You mention something like that to someone and they don’t like it why wouldn’t you at least think they’ve got poor taste?

This whole thing strikes me as attempts to paint people who are at worst jerks in certain situations and trying to label them as flat out bad people

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kingderella said on November 18th, 2012 at 8:32 pm

“It is not the principle that the other side is arguing.”

actually, id argue the principle as well (as various previous commenters here already have).

lets say a woman with no interest in sci-fi or fantasy decides to dress up and go to a con, because she craves attention and/or thinks there is money to be made somehow. SO. FUCKING. WHAT. at worst, that might be mildly irritating. the world is full of people that are irritating because theyre needy and/or mercenary. that problem is solved by simply moving on.

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mygif

@Jason: “I don’t like how geek guys are talked about online, like they’re petty, judgmental jerks! Now let me tell you how geeks can’t deal with change well, how weird and I find people who enjoy cosplaying are, and how people who don’t appreciate overused catchphrases have poor taste.”

Seriously? That’s what you’re going with here? Also, comparing geek guys to “Nice Guys” probably isn’t going to help your argument out the way you’re hoping it will, just throwing that out there.

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mygif

So it looks like Tony Harris has become a crazy old man like Byrne and Miller. Shame, I loved his work on Starman.

Personally I don’t go to conventions in part because cosplay creeps me out a little. People in masks are fine in comics but it is almost never a good thing in real life.

Still, you have to admire the dedication of anyone that goes to the trouble of making a decent costume. Anyone who goes to that much effort to express their fandom has much more of a right to call themselves a “real nerd” than I do. All I do is consume the media and post on message boards

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mygif

I think the “nice guys” thing is bullshit too. And guess what, those issues I have with people doesn’t mean I think they’re bad people. Articles like this suggest they are. That it’s okay to suggest motives besides trying to break the ice with someone

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mygif

I think it is clear what needs to happen – every con-goer must complete a 3 hour exam that covers a wide range of geek fodder. You must score 75% correct or higher to enter the con.

Sure, it will reduce attendances at these events substantially, but the 15 people inside will have proven their right to be there and will share a lot of common interests.

Those people who turn up just to have “a good time” don’t have a place in geek culture!

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mygif

Nice Guys is a really apt analogy. In each case, a man thinks a woman “owes” him something because he read the social situation differently from the way the woman did. (Expecting sex for friendship/expecting sex for showing off trivia prowess over a genre.) She *had* to know that was what was expected, right?!

As for people making costumes just because they like the costume, it happens all the time. Sewing is a lot of work, and you don’t want to invest that unless you like what you’re making. Within the anime fandom, you’ll see a lot of the hardcore cosplayers who focus on outfits that were featured in just one color image somewhere, because they like it and want to show off. There’s nothing like the feeling when someone else comes up to you and not only recognizes your outfit but wants to hear all about how you figured out how to make the details in craft foam or whatever.

In some regards, cosplay is like its own convention within the convention, and aside from complaints about photo shoots crowding the aisles, people pretty much live and let live. It’s not like these girls are asking for money, and they can’t even demand you take their photo. So who cares?

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mygif

“I think the “nice guys” thing is bullshit too.”

Well, you’re wrong. I mean, sorry man, but the “Nice Guys” thing is only “bullshit” in the sense that passive-aggressively expecting women to reciprocate your feelings when you’re too chickenshit to simply tell them you’re interested in them instead of hanging around them all friendly-like only to get snotty about it when they treat you like, y’know, a friend is bullshit. Because it is. Not every “Nice Guy” is a raging misogynist asshole, no, but acting like a capital-N Nice Guy is a pretty lousy thing to do if for no other reason than it does you no favors and makes you come across like a massive tool. Acting like a Nice Guy is not a good thing, it is a bad thing, as bad as any other bit of social maladjustment that people can fall into. The trick is recognizing that doing so is a bad thing, learning from your mistakes, and to stop doing it. People aren’t born with the knowledge that they should chew with their mouths closed either, but that doesn’t mean that when someone across the table from you is giving you a front row seat to his mastication process in action that you’re in the wrong for telling him “Hey man, chew with your mouth closed, c’mon.”

And just like being a Nice Guy is a bad thing to do, trying to label and categorize people as being “fake geeks” because they don’t meet your arbitrary threshold of acceptable, unquestionable geekosity is also a bad thing. Doing so doesn’t make you Hitler von Murderstein, but it’s still a shitty thing to do and you don’t get a pass on it, even if you have some vaguely good-intentioned reason for doing so, if you don’t stop doing it when people point out what a shitty thing it is to do.

The proper response to someone, to a LOT of someones, pointing out that your behavior is toxic, is not to pout and shut down all attempts at self-reflection, it’s to do some introspection and see if, hey, maybe they have a point.

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mygif

Kai- It’s the 21st century. Women can ask men out. Advertising you’re pleasant to be around, share interests and are maybe useful to be around seems like a perfectly logical way to show yourself off.

The thing about judging people is, at least when you’re talking about non-criminal behavior, is pretty much everyone has an equal right to judge each other.

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mygif

“Kai- It’s the 21st century. Women can ask men out. Advertising you’re pleasant to be around, share interests and are maybe useful to be around seems like a perfectly logical way to show yourself off.”

And again, you’re wrong. You’re wrong for two reasons:

1). You’re wrong because how in the blue-blazing fuck is it more logical to tell a woman (or ANYONE you happen to be interested in) that you’re interested in them by BEATING AROUND THE BUSH? Guess what, Jason? Hanging around with someone and acting nice is NOT the super-secret code for “I am interested in you romantically/sexually and would like to pursue a relationship” and if you act like it is then the problem doesn’t lie with the other person, the problem lies with you. The logical way to tell someone you are interested in them is to make your intentions obvious, not be disingenuous and then act affronted when they fail to read your mind.

2). And you’re also wrong because while this is the 21st century and women can ask men out…of course they can, nobody here should dispute that I think…nobody is ever obligated to ask someone out just because they act nice to them.

THAT is what makes Nice Guyism stupid and shitty and why acting like a Nice Guy is bad…because it stems from a sense that acting nice towards a woman OBLIGES that woman to reciprocate the Nice Guy’s hidden feelings. No, no it does not, and if you think it does and refuse to understand that it doesn’t then yes Jason, that DOES make you a bad person.

“The thing about judging people is, at least when you’re talking about non-criminal behavior, is pretty much everyone has an equal right to judge each other.”

Sure. And if nerd guys go around judging nerd gals as being fake, shallow attention-whores because they can’t quote Green Lantern lore chapter and verse, then said nerd gals are just as entitled to judge nerd guys as a bunch of sexist asshole idiots. Funny how that works.

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mygif

I have a serious problem with this article.

Empire is clearly the superior film.

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malakim2099 said on November 18th, 2012 at 11:56 pm

I agree with Kadin.

Also. Where the hell are these women when I go to conventions??? Geez, I would like to be preyed upon just once here! ;)

But seriously, women that show the dedication for the cosplay or whatever deserve to be lauded, not condemned. Well, unless they are doing something really bad in the “please God have Cthulhu appear and kill me now” way of course… but I think that goes for cosplay of either gender. The sheer ridiculousness of this concept of “women preying on geeks at Cons” is so laughable that I don’t even know where to begin.

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mygif

“The sheer ridiculousness of this concept of “women preying on geeks at Cons” is so laughable that I don’t even know where to begin.”

To a lot of guys, and not just NERD guys but guys in general, there’s a strong, pervasive narrative that women are basically cruel and manipulative vixens who enjoy toying with men like a cat with a mouse. You see this reflected in the same Nice Guyism being discussed upthread, to wit:

-I am a Nice Guy.

-I know I am a Nice Guy because I hang around the woman I want a relationship with and do Nice Things.

-Doing Nice Things for someone like this should OBVIOUSLY make my true intentions, that I want a relationship, crystal clear.

-The woman isn’t reciprocating.

-So clearly the woman is simply stringing me along for her amusement, because she can’t NOT know how I feel despite not actually having told her.

-And so she must know how I feel and yet she keeps letting me hang around her and doing Nice Things.

-Therefore she is a MANIPULATIVE BITCH WHO LOVES SLEEPING WITH ASSHOLES INSTEAD OF NICE GUYS LIKE ME.

Etc. etc. So when you start with a foundational premise such as “Women are inherently suspicious, untrustworthy creatures” then it’s absolutely unsurprising in the slightest that a lot of guys seeing an uptick in women expressing any sort of interest in nerd anything will jump to the conclusion that those women must be UP TO SOMETHING, man.

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mygif

Every time I read anything about race or gender, I realize how much my faith in humanity is misplaced.

Truthfully, I would rather maintain my delusions that mankind is not a collection of scum from the rim of a toilet bowl, so I will avoid these topics in the future.

I would rather live in the fantasy of my choosing, than this horrible, filthy world.

Ok, melodrama aside, I still mean it. The human race needs a good culling. 30% or so. Maybe a well targeted 15%.

It’s conventions for f.ck’s sake. If you’re a misogynistic scum, can’t you just be grateful that costumes for women are skimpy? Can’t you just objectify them quietly and be creepy in your heart, pants and basement?

Sure I’ve been drinking, but I’m pretty sure I will stand by every word of it when sober. Except killing a billion people, that might be excessive.

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bad johnny got out said on November 19th, 2012 at 12:59 am

This isn’t really happening, it’s just some dumb Cory Doctorow story, right?

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mygif

I’m pretty sure I’m still a geek even though I like the new Battlestar. I watched maybe five minutes of the original and just lost interest immediately. Does that make me less of a geek? Also, I enjoy Big Bang Theory just like any other type of brain junk food you can find on tv.

Misogyny is a huge issue, yes. But I think a bigger issue is this element of hipster-ism invading the sub-culture. “I was into Dr. Who before it was cool” is something I’ve heard entirely too many times. Only once, but that is one too many.

I’d point out that if nobody cared who was a “poser” that whole facebook post wouldn’t have happened in the first place. I hardly think he would have just complained about half naked ladies if he didn’t think they were too un-geeky to dress up in costumes.

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mygif

Wellllllll.

There’s definitely a “hipsterish” element to a lot of the complaints about faux geekery. We were here first! We were here when talking about Star Wars and Battlestar Galactica got you laughed at during lunch period, not like now when it gets you “likes” on Facebook and Youtube! We EARNED the rights to call ourselves geeks, all YOU did was just start enjoying the same things we enjoy!

But at the same time? A LOT of this is directed towards women specifically. Too much to be purely coincidental. Nobody’s writing rambly, ranting articles about handsome guys in Batman t-shirts devaluing the Comic-Con experience while cruising for nerd chicks. What’s the saying? Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action? Well this has been going on way more than three times now.

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mygif

So sup. I’m a youngin so feel free to disregard me, but as shitty as it sounds(and yea I get all the hipster jokes we’ll get out of this) but this is a real thing. At 22 there are a ton of people who expect there likes and loves to be better than your’s, I get that. But everytime someone looks at me and is all “Yea man I’m a TOTAL nerd. I love The Island and everything!”, it gives me this feeling of having my “culture” or whatever nonsense you’ll label that just gone.

I’m slightly anti-social but that doesn’t mean I don’t love to hang out with my friends. (And Yes I can talk to people about things that aren’t geeky) They bring it up from what they’ve skimmed from The Avengers movie, that Deadpool comic they’re boyfriend had them read, or the facebook game they play a lot what do I do? Stand there and say “yea…uh huh…sure” and never say a thing.

(dammit this makes me feel like a douche)

I’d love geek friends. Ones who know more than I do. I can’t find that, it sucks, blah blah blah. Alright…uh hmm…I get it! Alright so I have strong feelings towards media, a lot of it. Thanks to TV Tropes, MGK, ton of things. But when people come to me and try and talk about those things I can’t not have a conversation with them and not disperse my opinion right? And since I have more information it always comes across as being…hipster? Like pushing them out of my “domain”. Course I hate that. I just wish they’d want to look at what I’m talking about instead of just talking about they’re passing interests in things like that makes them this obsessive personality as some weird funny joke and then runs with it like he’s serious. Or she I guess.

(Also I never run into this with the ladies as much as guys. Sure steams my carrots when anyone talks about how much they love Batman and think he’s the best character ever written and never read a comic in there life, but that’s the price of things becoming mainstream. Also BBT has caused way too many problems in my life for some dumb reason.)

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mygif

Wow…I cannot spell drunk. Or write drunk. Sorry if any eyes are currently bleeding. Hopefully I’m not a prick now? *awkward smile*

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mygif

I just don’t really understand how a girl dressing up in a revealing costume and then either not being an uber-nerd or, (what I think is the underlying real cause of this hate) for not being an easy nerd-bang, can be called “preying” on the helpless nerds.

Is an attractive woman showing some skin, and then not necessarily being easily approachable causing some sort of lasting damage to the nerd community?

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mygif

Is it really fair to accuse your opposition of having no supporting data when you don’t have any either? There’s no real data on either side about the mentality of the average nerd over gender, age, and attractiveness. That would be pretty hard data to get.

So the lack of data doesn’t really support your arbitrary optimistic interpretation of personal experiences any more than it does their arbitrary pessimistic interpretation of personal experiences.

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mygif

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I just had an XKCD-esque argument with a guy in the comments section of a New Statesman article on this Tony Harris piece; he claimed that the problem was that women refuse to “let a male space be a male space.” This argument seemed so ridiculous to me that I asked him if he REALLY meant that women shouldn’t go to Cons, no matter how much and how long they had loved something (as an example I used my Who fandom and cosplaying as Ace when I was 13 and episodes with that character were first airing).

Short answer: yes, he really meant it. He had “bled” for his space and didn’t want women in it, and he told me, completely seriously, that women should go make their own space. He called women going to Cons at all “bullSh*t.”

And now I’m in the midst of this weird sensation, wondering if the whole time I was growing up, there were guys who flat-out hated me when they saw me at Cons because I was well-socialized, female, reasonably attractive, and large-busted. It’s bizarre. At least most times I was with a group of mostly male friends (demographics being what they were at the time), so no one ever approached me directly to be a dick. Actually, now that I think about it, they probably just assumed I was there because I was someone’s girlfriend. :-P

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Carlos Futino said on November 19th, 2012 at 6:23 am

Actually, I think you can argue both the data and the principle:
1 – No, women don’t go to convention to bully “real geeks”. They go there to enjoy themselves.

2 – No, we shouldn’t keep “poseurs” out. Whatever kind of geekdom you decide is enough to be consdired a “real geek”, you’re wong. Everyone woh is able to get a ticket is allowed (and should be) allowed to go to any convention.

PS: Couldn’t Harris have waited until Ex-Machina finisehd publishing in Brazil? It’s only one TPB away, and now I’ll read it with this post in mind.

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mygif

@MIB: The next time some jackhole starts running off his mouth (or typing fingers, whatever) about cons being a “male space,” feel free to enlighten him on the origin of geek conventions. Taken from another forum I frequent:

One of the things that pisses me off is this: Mr. Harris has media conventions (of which comics cons are a subset) to go to…thanks to women.

Up until the 1960s, and specifically until Star Trek, visual media of any kind were very much a side thing at science fiction conventions. Painting and such, okay, but anything paying much attention to film, tv, whatever, was likely to get tarred as more of that Forrest J. Ackerman shit and pushed aside.

Women have always been present in sf fandom, including in important positions. A significant number of pro authors got their starts that way, or were involved with it alongside their pro work: Julian May, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Joanna Russ, Maureen McHugh, Jo Walton, Connie Willis, Nancy Kress, lots more. But there was a fresh boom in the ’60s, and it’s basically Spock’s fault.

Star Trek proved popular enough with female fans to generate enough fannish activity to make the grognards of that time uncomfortable, and first fanzines and amateur press associations, then dedicated media conventions, emerged. Women who weren’t going to be allowed by Gatekeepers of All That Is True In Fandom proceeded to carve out new places for themselves to share with each other and anyone else who might be interested. Gradually they became established enough to become part of the overall sf fandom landscape.

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I am a geek, but in a different field of geekdom. I’m a first and foremost a radio amateur, although I have also a mild sci-fi and fantasy addiction and have developed a liking of railway history.

During my time at the university (from freshman to Ph.D, in the same university, possible in Finland), I was an avid member of our ham club. We had two female members. They were real geeks. In radio amateurship, you can easily prove you are a geek by understanding radios. Both of them majored in RF electronics, and one of them also became a Ph.D on the field. One started going out, and later married, one of us guys, the other was in a stable relationship with an outside guy even as a freshman, later marrying him.

These gals never needed to prove their geekiness. They were as competent as any of us. Sometimes, however, we had entitlement issues commented here. A few visiting hams needed to be reminded of good manners, which the young ladies were very able to do themselves.

The most difficult situations arose, nonetheless, during anniversaries, when former members, sometimes retired engineers over 60 years old, came to visit. For some of those old-timers, having mixed sauna was an uncomfortable experience, although for us students, that was the custom.

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@Kai

Thanks for posting that–I knew about that, but I couldn’t find the ref during the back-and-forth with that guy. Also, at that point my mind was still blown at this guy asserting that, as a 13-year-old who had NO friends who were into Who (this was back in the late ’80s), I should have stayed home by myself rather than go to a Who Con and try to make friends. Because being female meant I didn’t belong there, period. Mindblowing.

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Empire is the best movie. Not just Star Wars neither, best movie EVER.

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Thank you.

I’d like to add a bit to your response to the premise: “Yes, but the principle of keeping out the poseurs because they’re really just bullying real geeks with their condescension, that needs to be defended,”

They are not the ones doing the bullying and they certainly are not the ones being condescending.

One of my close friends, who I love and respect, was part of the formal gowns of The Avengers group that hit Dragon Con this past year and who have been shared all over the internet since(she was the Fabulous Hulk) and while I doubt she’s ever read The Avengers (albeit she’s probably read Sandman and knows who Death is) the amount of geekery she puts into her costuming is astounding and inspiring and she should generate nothing but respect from all who see her.

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One of the things that makes me so furious about the misogyny in fandom is that while I am used to having to answer questions to prove my geekery, after all I’ve been doing it for 30+ years, I don’t want my 11 year old daughter to grow up feeling like she owes anyone anything in order to show that she’s a nerd. She just announced that she doesn’t want to play FreeRealms online anymore because Mommy and Daddy play are currently playing DC Universe Online and that looks much more fun to her and she can play a character like her favorite cartoon character, which waffles between Robin, Kid Flash, and Raven. Thank ghod her favorite character is not Starfire. I’d have a hell of a time explaining the shameful mess Starfire has become to her if she ever managed to get ahold of our comics. And how shameful is it that we feel we have to hide most of our comics from her?!?! I started reading comics when I was 5. I was a precocious reader and had learned how a few years earlier. It boggles my mind that something I grew up doing I have to hide from my daughter because the crap that’s being published now would warp her mind worse than any Calvin Kline advertisement.

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FeepingCreature said on November 19th, 2012 at 11:24 am

I just want to say the same thing I said in the last thread: this would be much easier and also saner if “geek” and “nerd” were verbs. So it’s not a question of “are you a geek” – you either geek or you don’t geek. Nouns are too wrapped up in status thinking; verbs avoid that better.

Of course, then we can debate what geeking means .. ;)

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Thinking about this some more, I really quite strongly disagree with Seavey’s thesis. Data are simply irrelevant here; Tony Harris simply cannot have a valid complaint. Even if everything he complains of does happen, the fact that the person doing it doesn’t know enough about comics or thinks nerds are pathetic is never a root cause of the problem.

Let’s break it down!
Dressed as a comic book character: not actually hurting anyone
Not as hot as they think they are, scantily clad, large breasts, think they are skinny: not actually hurting anyone, and you’re an asshole if you say they are
Boobies are not GREAT: what is this I don’t even
Need attention and to be told they are pretty: I’m going to file this one under “human”
“The thought of guys pleasuring themselves to the memory of you hanging on them with your glossy open lips blah blah blah makes your head vibrate”: Assuming that this is actually hurting the dude who is pleasuring himself, would it actually be hurting him less if the woman’s head were vibrating with comprehensive knowledge of the Green Lantern Corps?
Wouldn’t give “Fans who either RARELY speak to, or NEVER speak to girls” the time of day outside of a con: Well, gee, when you put it that way, I can’t see why any not-very-hot girl would pass up the chance.
Think real nerds are pathetic: I think this is actually where there’s the most room for good faith debate. Yes, the fact that “true nerds” often interact with people who despise them is unfortunate. But again, if the dude comes away with a masturbatory fantasy, who’s to say he’s anything but enriched by the experience?

The only way you look at this situation and conclude that someone is being hurt is if you start from the assumption that nerds are entitled to get laid when they go to cons. They’re not. Harris mentions “preying,” and certainly if the women are in some way consuming the flesh of nerds, that needs to stop – but teaching those cannibals more about comics is not likely to help!

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Last time I checked for most fans the purpose of going to a convention was to have a good time. If wearing a costume is fun, go for it. You don’t have to know anything about the character / artist behind it anymore than if you buy a cool looking T-shirt or toy. If you like it, you like it; nuff sed

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@Jason: “I’ll be blunt I don’t like the way geek guys are talked about online.”

Neither do I. That’s why I make sure to call obnoxious geek guys out on their bad behavior, so that they will clue up and not do stupid shit that makes us look bad.

“Ever heard the word “wooing” people. That’s all so many of these actions you’re condemning are, on the trying to get with women front.”

OK, look…if you think that saying, “Either sleep with me or get the fuck out of my convention, you lying whore!” (which is Tony Harris’ screed, boiled down to one sentence) is ‘wooing’, you have failed at understanding the concept. If your idea of ‘wooing’ causes women to back away, look for exits, reach for mace, avoid being with you in one-on-one situations…you are failing at ‘woo’. If your idea of ‘wooing’ involves insulting, belittling, or demanding sex from a woman…you are failing at ‘woo’. If you don’t understand why this is bad behavior, cease ‘wooing’ at once until you can talk to someone about acceptable ‘wooing’ practices, probably with a platonic female friend. If you don’t have a platonic female friend…THAT IS PART OF THE PROBLEM.

I do understand that geek guys want to get laid. I also understand that some of them have poor social skills, and sometimes they make women uncomfortable. But I do not understand how this is somehow something that women have to put up with, just ’cause.

“I’m not a con-goer, nothing about them strikes me as appealing. But as weird as I think they are I think dressing up in a costume because you like a character is, I think dressing up in a certain costume because you like costumes seems much weirder to me.”

And there are people who would say that spending all your time watching cartoons/reading comics originally intended for children seems weird to them. Or launching a model rocket with a grandfather clock in it. Or hurling pumpkins with a compressed-air launcher that probably cost more than my car. The whole point of geekery is understanding what other people are passionate about, because even though our interests differ, we all share that intensity of feeling about them.

@Kadin, cole1114: Wouldn’t it be nice if that was all we had to argue about? :)

@malakim2099: “Where the hell are these women when I go to conventions??? Geez, I would like to be preyed upon just once here!”

You misunderstand–they’re ‘preying’ on these men by maliciously not sleeping with them. :)

@Brad: Trying to be nice, but…when you write, “(dammit this makes me feel like a douche)” that’s probably your subconscious talking to you. Listen to it. Have a good long conversation with it. You might be surprised what you turn up.

@MIB: That’s really fucking terrible, and I’m sorry you had to go through that. There are a lot of other people in this thread I want to say that to as well, but this one hit me the hardest.

@Peyton: “They are not the ones doing the bullying and they certainly are not the ones being condescending.”

Totally agree. But there are people seriously trying to make that argument, that the real bullying is “non-fans invading our space and pretending to like us,” and those are the people I was addressing with that comment. I just don’t even want to have that argument with those people, because I just don’t believe it’s even happening. :)

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Re the “Nice Guy” nonsense. If you’re doing “nice” things for other people in the hopes that you will get something out of it, you’re not a nice guy. You’re the asshole. You’re being a manipulative douche. You’re not wooing someone. You’re not doing anything like it. Please stop saying that women don’t want nice guys. They just don’t want passive-aggressive, manipulative assholes, which, just to reiterate, is what you are being. Stop it.

Re faux Geek girls: if someone doesn’t have the encyclopedic knowledge of your particular geeky passion, dresses in a skimpy outfit, and doesn’t want to sleep with you, that’s not predatory. They just find your lecturing them about their lack of knowledge, your rolling of eyes at their missing of the obvious geek cues you’re tossing out, or you in general to be off-putting. It’s not them, it’s you. If they have the same interests as you, wear a skimpy outfit, and understand all your references and still don’t want to sleep with you, then they’re just not into you. They’re not a bitch, they’re not manipulating you. They just wanted to have the same conversation with you that you’d have with your dudegeek pal about Star Trek, Battlestar, or the obscura of the DC line. If you can accept that, you might find out that they’re pretty cool just to talk to, even if they don’t want to sleep with you, which, again, doesn’t make them a bad person.

Be happy that women are beginning to feel non-threatened by our subculture to the point where they actually want to participate. Remember how you used to be shy about letting on how much you liked sci-fi, or whatever, because you thought people would hate you? They’re just getting over that point themselves. Don’t fuck it up for them by showing them how right they were to be afraid in the first place, you asshat. If I ever have a daughter, I want her to feel comfortable sharing in the things I love. Similarly, I like to bring my wife places to show her the culture that I love. And if your belief that any woman dressed in a skimpy cosplay outfit is there for you to sleep with, and that they are obligated to do so by virtue of the cosplay, then I will explain to you, at humiliating depth and volume, in front of everyone, just how mistaken and pathetic you are.

TL;DR – To paraphrase the often under appreciated philosopher Phillip J. Fry, “Attention geeks: stop acting so stupid!”

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@John Seavey

Thanks–your post was a bit of an antidote to that whole situation.

I ended up telling the guy in the comments at New Statesman that he had no empathy. Because you know what sucks? Not just being a geek starting in, say, third grade, and having other girls mock you and kids in general side-eyeing you all the time because you read “weird stuff” and “are weird” (in fifth grade, I had a total of 2 friends, both boys; we were the ones who read and watched sci fi/fantasy). Not just that.

What sucks is that you have that alienation AND THEN you hit puberty early (seriously, I was a C/D cup at 12), so added to the marginalizing you’ve already been getting, you start getting comments in the school halls ranging from “ooo, you make me thirsty for milk” to straight up “DAMN those are some big-ass titties.” Yeah, growing up being an attractive, well-endowed girl with low self-esteem due, in part, to years of “regular” geek ostracism was a real ball of laughs, let me tell you, Mr. New Statesman Commenter. I can see how you would find me threatening by being in “your” space. (Side note: I can’t imagine why, at 13, I would want to cosplay as a Who companion not that much older than me who was a bad ass, took no shit, and WAS CONSTANTLY BLOWING STUFF UP. :-Fe)

I guess that’s part of what makes me crazy about this whole argument. These people are presuming to know what someone else’s life is like and what’s going on in their head BASED ENTIRELY ON HOW THEY LOOK. And then telling them to GTFO.

On a final note, one of the reasons I keep coming back here (in addition to the awesome content, natch) is the fact that you, John, and MGK and other self-professed males here see women as people. It’s so…heartening.

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Kate the Short said on November 19th, 2012 at 6:35 pm

*applause* Seavey is awesome. Nuff said.

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John, Sisyphus: The wooing comment was about doing nice things for people. If you’re talking about going up to someone with a catchphrase or bit of trivia such as you talked about is just an attempt at an opening line. “Hi, I have a sense of humor and am also interested in the character you are portraying and know enough to know that you are portraying She-Hulk and not an Orion Slave Girl(for an example), so would you maybe like to hang out” rather than being a total lech and spouting off random compliments.

If you’re in a mixed gender area and it’s not someplace like a place of business and you’re actually interacting with people is it really likely that at no point there will be sexual interest involved?

On being a “nice guy” if you’re hanging around with someone you’re getting something from them even if it’s just the pleasure of their company. If you don’t like someone even if you’re nice initially you’ll soon stop doing nice things for them as you stop hanging around them. So basically, if you do multiple nice things for a person, you’re probably getting something out of it.

And all this talk about the way guy geeks treat women just seems to keep getting worse. It’s like people are saying “what you don’t think they’re terrible enough? Well, they actually do this.”

I mean the “Nice Guy” thing used to be men who listened to women complain about their crappy boyfriends and then complained about said woman not dating them. Now there’s no trace of the whole not dating thing. No, a man wants something from a woman, it’s just sex. Not the things that might lead to sex eventually, like dating or a relationship.

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” he claimed that the problem was that women refuse to “let a male space be a male space.”
Exactly.
This isn’t uniquely a geek thing: A lot of guys in a lot of places feel that their male space is defiled if a woman gets into the clubhouse. And anyone woman who thereby defiles them is, ergo, a bitch who doesn’t know her place.
As many feminists have pointed out over the years, for a lot of men being A Man is that there are clear, significant ways they can mark themselves off from women. A Man’s Job. A Man’s Space. A Man’s Hobby. And if a woman shows up and it’s suddenly not A Guy Thing presto, they’re psychologically castrated. So the woman is, again, a horrible human being.
None of which is meant as an excuse for Harris, believe me.

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@Jason: Seriously, have you ever considered the possibility that hanging around someone and “doing nice things” for them STILL doesn’t oblige them to reciprocate any sort of desire for a date or a relationship, or fuck it, even friendship? Because all I keep getting out of your posts is this weird assumption that acting friendly towards someone LOGICALLY leads to a deeper relationship and no, it doesn’t. And if you’re hanging around someone acting nice to them ON THE ASSUMPTION that this is supposed to lead to a relationship then you are either A). clueless or B). an asshole.

Maybe it isn’t those women, man. Maybe it’s just you.

And if it seems like the way guy nerds treat gal nerds is getting worse, it isn’t. Guy nerds have ALWAYS treated gal nerds this way. The difference is now it’s being made more visible and more people are talking about it. So stuff like this Tony Harris rant or the guy telling MIB she should fuck off and stay away from “his” conventions? Yeah, that’s always been there.

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Okay, y’all, obviously this has been a triggery subject for me. To wit: I’m watching a Batman Beyond ep (bought the whole series bootleg off eBay b/c I LOVE IT), Final Cut (i.e., the return of Curare), and I’m reading Curare’s motivation as a woman reclaiming the subculture she’s part of and that’s being “policed” by her male peers. Lolz to me :-)

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and why is the assumption that it doesn’t more logical. Frankly, if you’ve got someone constantly treating you nice then they probably assume you are friends. If you take advantage of that and you don’t consider them a friend, then as a person you are a bad one. See, the thing I’m arguing is that friendship can lead to something deeper, it is not impossible and basically “Here are the things I like, here are the things I can do and aren’t I nice to you” makes sense as a reason to give someone a chance for a relationship as “hey, I’m good looking, we’ll figure out the rest later.”

No, I’m saying the way people describing “geek guys” reactions are always getting way worse. It’s always “I obviously want sex and will treat you like shit if you don’t give it” never “you know what I’m really not comfortable around people who view my fandom so much differently than me” despite the kind of flame wars guys get into about that and the fact the complaints are about how girls view geeky things enough that it’s about them being called fake geek girls.

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BTW, y’all an call me Melissa. MIB are my post-marriage initials. And they’re my post marriage initials because 1) my husband suggested we take a new last name together when we got married, and 2) he later suggested I keep my given middle name b/c then my initials would be the same as Men In Black :-) oh yeah, and for my birthday he gave me a sonic screwdriver that WORKS AS A REAL SCREWDRIVER

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Jason, it’s assuming either way that isn’t logical. You can’t expect things from a person unless they’ve told you to expect those things. If I randomly buy you a beer, are you obligated to be my friend for life? No. But you *might* be my friend for life, because hey, you not only like beer, we decide we get along.

I’d be an asshole if I bought you that beer *assuming* I’d get a friend out of it. I’d be a nice person if I bought you that beer because I thought you’d like it and didn’t expect anything more. You can hope for more, but you can’t *assume* it’s yours by right, and you can’t blame the beer recipient for not knowing what you expected from them.

I didn’t say “I’ll buy you a beer if you’ll be my friend for life,” I just bought it for you. For all you know I’m simply a friendly drunk with money to burn who likes to buy beers for people.

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Ducky- after I buy you that first beer do you keep showing up specifically to get me to buy you beer? That’s the thing, see your example is just like mine… eventually the nice things would stop being done, because we’d stop hanging out.

and as for the hoping for more from a relationship if it is possible then all you’re doing is hoping for something. That is allowed in life.

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It is entirely possible that the beer recipient figures “Hey, this guy seems to enjoy buying me beer. I enjoy drinking it, and we both have a good time talking while we drink, so why not do more of that?” The beer recipient is still not obligated because the beer giver has still not put any stipulations on his gift, and has left it completely open to interpretation. He cannot complain that it was interpreted the “wrong” way when he put no effort into establishing the “right” way.

Of course you can hope. You just can’t expect. You sound like you *say* you’re hoping, but really you’re expecting (hence saying people are bad people, or that you’ll stop doing nice things, or whatever).

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Also: “specifically to get me to buy you beer?”

At what point in my example did the recipient try to “get” the giver to do anything? What are these girls doing to “get” the guys to do them things? Accepting a proffered gift is not taking advantage.

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Ducky- okay maybe by definitions are to loose, but to me that sounds like a friendship.

See, I’m not talking obligation or expectation.

See, I’m saying that you’re a bad person if you feel “This guy is a total idiot, but I can tune him out and get free beer.”

That’s the kind of situation that makes bad person that I’m talking about

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@Jason:

“See, the thing I’m arguing is that friendship can lead to something deeper, it is not impossible and basically “Here are the things I like, here are the things I can do and aren’t I nice to you” makes sense as a reason to give someone a chance for a relationship as “hey, I’m good looking, we’ll figure out the rest later.””

Once again, you’re conflating “CAN lead to a relationship” with “WILL/SHOULD lead to a relationship.” Nobody’s obligated to follow the “logical path of relationship progression” as you seem to have it stuck in your head.

Seriously, READ what the fuck you just wrote. “Aren’t I nice to you.” Aren’t I nice to you? Do you get what I mean by passive-aggression here Jason, or is that just not coming across? Because the idea of “See how nice I am to you? Look at how nice I am to you! I am totally worth engaging in a relationship because aren’t I so nice to you?” is, man, I can’t even begin to describe how self-serving and entitled that comes across as. You aren’t grinding for fucking achievements, Jason. You should be nice to people because you WANT TO BE, not because you’re building up “relationship points.”

“and as for the hoping for more from a relationship if it is possible then all you’re doing is hoping for something. That is allowed in life.”

Hoping for shit is fine, but:

A). If all you’re doing is quietly pining away for a relationship while doing nothing to express that desire beyond acting like a platonic friend then when your hopes don’t pan out YOU HAVE NOBODY TO BLAME BUT YOURSELF.

B). When you then decide to piss and moan about “Oh, it’s the 21st century, women can ask men out too! I’m a Nice Guy!” then you’re doing more than just sitting around and hoping, you’re trying to assign blame to everyone and everything else but where it actually lies. Which is why Nice Guys are assholes. At least Pick-Up Artists are upfront about what they’re after and possess some shred of self-awareness.

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“See, I’m saying that you’re a bad person if you feel ‘This guy is a total idiot, but I can tune him out and get free beer.’”

That’s another assumption. The choices are not limited to “best friend for life” and “take advantage of the idiot.” There is a third choice, which is “free beer with this guy is nice, so I’ll take him up on his offer and enjoy.”

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Seriously, I’m not sure why this is so hard for some people to understand. Trying to ingratiate your way into a relationship, sexual or romantic, is a shitty thing to do. If you want to be friends with someone, don’t do so under false pretenses or with a hidden agenda in mind because that is a shitty thing to do. Friendship ought to be its own reward. If you want to take a friendship to the next level then IT’S ON YOU to make that intention clear and to prepare yourself for the possibility of rejection, and IF you happen to get rejected and your reaction is all “That bitch, doesn’t she see all the nice stuff I’ve done for her?” then you are a shitty friend and probably a shitty person to boot.

None of which, admittedly, really has much to do with the article in question which is much more cut-and-dried: are you the sort of person who thinks that women at geek conventions need a dressing down or should have to prove their geek credentials lest they be labeled as lying attention-whores? Then congratulations, you’re a fucking asshole.

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No I’m not conflating could with will/should and you’re reading into things

And no, I’m not suggesting you’re building points by showing how nice you are. I am suggesting that you are basically introducing yourself. “Yeah, I’m pretty handy with tools.” Oh, I know about.” Also, you generally WANT TO BE nice to people you like.

I’m only assigning blame if I declare that the women the nice guys want to date are bad for not asking them out. I’m not. I’m just saying that nice guys aren’t bad for hoping to be asked out.

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I’m a geek and I’ve been one for a while. I was a geeky girl when it was pretty much not done, and I suffered through a lot of bullshit for what I was. I did, briefly, get a little pissy at the Jenny-come-lately types who jumped into partial geekery once they found out that there was something worth having in my community.

Then I thought, “They think there’s something worth having in my community. How many people never see anything valuable in us at all? How many people would rather be having a root canal than visiting a science fiction con?”

Once, I was buying my first dice. Once, I was seeing a science fiction movie for the first time. Once, I read my first fantasy book and once I picked up my first foam sword. There was a time in my life when I didn’t know why Ford Prefect needs a towel or what makes a Moriquendi different. Doesn’t matter that someone’s later to the party than I am, if she’s going to find a passion that interests her as much as mine interest me and she’s going to bring that energy to my community, then I WANT HER THERE whether she meets some arbitrary set of criteria for ‘geeky enough’ or not.

Are there still people (men AND women) using geekery as a fashion statement, putting on trappings of my culture ironically or soaking up attention I might get if I were into costuming and was willing to wear short skirts and midriff-baring tops? Yep, undoubtedly.

But, well, so what? Why does it matter? I’m here to have fun, to meet people, to play my games and read my books and watch my movies. These women, they’re not in competition with me for the things I’m seeking, they’re not hurting me any. And if I start a conversation with someone who doesn’t know about the things I know, and she asks questions and we talk about it, then I made a new friend and she learned some new stuff about a thing that interests her. If I start a conversation with someone and it becomes clear she’s not really interested in the subject matter, then I shrug my shoulders and I move along. Conversation is not a finite resource; I don’t lose it by spending it on someone who doesn’t value it.

On the bit about the beer? Maybe I have thought, “This guy is a total idiot but he’ll buy me drinks” a time or two in my life. The drinks have never been worth the cost, frankly. However, the guy was thinking, “If I spend enough beer on this girl, then I’m buying her company.” And, well, when you start buying company or letting your company be bought, that’s a business transaction and you get the insincerity and shallow connection being paid for.

If you feel like these women are exploiting geek men, your best bet is to cultivate your own authenticity. Don’t expect to be able to use gifts or other currency as an exchange for sincere friendship or affection, and the people ‘buying’ those gifts with friendship or affection will move along. Most geeky men and women have a great deal more to offer than free beer and presents, but free beer and presents are easier than honesty, sincere conversation, and an open exchange of thoughts.

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My assumption as to why it’s so hard to understand is that it’s a combination of autism-spectrum disorders and expectations/values displayed in movies and books. If you’re on the spectrum (and I say this with a couple of diagnoses in the family), logic is everything. The “rules” are paramount, and must be followed. Anyone who does not obey the rules (from jaywalking to murder to taking two scoops of ice cream when Mom clearly said only one allowed) is a bad person and should be reprimanded. If no enforcer of the rules is available, the person on the spectrum will futilely attempt to enforce them themselves, usually to much failure and confusion.

Stereotypical geeks, not having much contact with other people outside their family, learn the “rules” of society through movies, books, comic books, and other forms of media. More often than not, these stories tell us that getting a girl requires doing nice things for her, rescuing her every now and then, and showing yourself to be better than the villain. So our stereotypical geek sets out to follow the “rules” he has had drummed into him, and can’t understand why they don’t work.

Why aren’t they working? Clearly they’ve done everything right. *Other* people must therefore be doing something wrong. The girl isn’t playing fair! She’s taking advantage! After all, everyone knows how this works, right? And in our stereotypical geek’s world, everyone does. The few people he associates with think the same way. He’s like the Wyoming Fox News viewer who doesn’t understand how Obama got reelected when everything he saw told him Romney would take it in a landslide.

So what does he do when told his rules are not only wrong, but completely arbitary? He lashes out, because people on the spectrum do *not* like change, especially when they don’t understand it. And when all of the arguments they get into don’t seem to follow logic (as they know it), they lash out more and more.

My solution? Give them more media to read. Give them romance novels, give them books with a feminist bent, give them comic books written by Brian K. Vaughan, and let them absorb a new set of “rules.” And if at all possible, get them while they’re young.

But that’s for people on the austim spectrum. Some guys are just misogynistic assholes, and for them I got nuttin.

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there’s plenty of other things that says girls like bad boys, or girls like jocks or girls like people who are basically the same class as them or are rich.

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Right. “Rules.” :)

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“I’m only assigning blame if I declare that the women the nice guys want to date are bad for not asking them out. I’m not. I’m just saying that nice guys aren’t bad for hoping to be asked out.”

They may not be bad the way a guy who kicks a puppy is bad or the way a guy who tells MIB to get back in the kitchen and out of his male-only safe space is bad, but they’re certainly acting dumb and unsympathetic. I mean, they get a certain amount of sympathy if they’re, say, in high school. Everyone is some combination of an idiot and/or an asshole in high school. Doing dumb things and having why they were dumb explained to us is how we learn, so some kid in high school who’s all “I don’t understand why she wouldn’t date me even though I never told her that I was interested but carried her books for her all year long,” I can feel some sympathy for that guy.

Past high school, though, that sympathy dries up fast.

And when these guys move from “quietly pining and hoping the object of their affection develops telepathy and reads their fucking mind” to whining about “but it’s the 21st century! How come THEY don’t ask ME out?” then, yes Jason, they become bad the same way every other whiny dork with an over-developed sense of entitlement is.

Sighing about how so-and-so won’t ask you out on a date even after all the Nice Things you’ve done for them is like moping about how some place won’t hire you after you paid to have donuts and balloons delivered to everyone. That’s not how getting a job works. You can either keep moping about how nobody appreciates the nice stuff you do for them and why won’t anybody hire you, or you can quit wallowing in self-pity, polish your resume, and apply for some fucking jobs.

“there’s plenty of other things that says girls like bad boys, or girls like jocks or girls like people who are basically the same class as them or are rich.”

Anybody or anything that claims to know what people of either sex like that can be boiled down to some vapid, simplistic soundbite like “girls like bad boys” can pretty much be safely disregarded as bullshit.

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Ducky, having a daughter on the Spectrum and quite possibly being there myself I have to agree with everything you say.

Rules.

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malakim2099 said on November 20th, 2012 at 12:43 am

“@malakim2099: “Where the hell are these women when I go to conventions??? Geez, I would like to be preyed upon just once here!”

You misunderstand–they’re ‘preying’ on these men by maliciously not sleeping with them. :)”

Oh! Well, I guess I have better luck than them at Conventions… ;)

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Sgaile-beairt said on November 20th, 2012 at 5:57 am

cant believe no one has posted this to jason yet….

http://xkcd.com/513/

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“I don’t understand why she wouldn’t date me even though I never told her that I was interested but carried her books for her all year long,”

In fact, the behaviour described in this sentence is pretty extreme. A responsible parent should teach his/her daughters that they should not allow puppies to follow them, unless they want to keep them. The girl should be raised up to understand that men, as a rule, do not show extensive friendship or sympathy out of friendship only and the young man showing such exquisite kindness must be told off politely, unless the girl wants his affection. This I say as a father of a daughter, not as a “Nice Guy”.

On the other hand, in high school, many girls are just as out of their depth as the boys. This, then, leads to many sorts of complications that are an essential part of growing up.

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I’ve seen it. It’s why I HATE the whole nice guy thing. Because it ascribes disrespect and really maliciousness and plotting to the whole thing, when I consider it just putting your best personality forward

It makes it okay to condemn someone for not being the average alpha male type, agressive and forward

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“The girl should be raised up to understand that men, as a rule, do not show extensive friendship or sympathy out of friendship only and the young man showing such exquisite kindness must be told off politely, unless the girl wants his affection

I’ll give that statement a pass if you’re talking specifically about teaching children the nuances of social behavior (e.g., “just so you know, that boy isn’t carrying your books because he’s trying to build muscle mass, he’s doing it to get your attention in a positive way”.)

However, this assigning of responsibility to the girl/woman get waaaay problematic once the people in question are, say, older than 15 or 16. Not every behavior is a damn code. Sometimes guys and girls are just friends, and sometimes a guy will “show extensive friendship or sympathy” to another friend who is going through a rough time, (or hell, just having a bad day)–even if that friend happens to be a girl.

To suggest that a girl should be constantly parsing her conversations and interactions with a guy she considers a friend, because it’s her responsibility to figure out if he wants something more from her…well, I can’t get behind that.

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@John Seavey: It’s the only thing worth arguing about.

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MIB,

I mostly concur. My opinion was limited to the environment of high school. However, I would also add persons who suffer from the autistic spectrum to this category. I.e. “If you have a young, nerdish man who is prone to fixating around highly technical or detailed topics, and he seems interested in you in a vaguely non-sexual way, assume that this interest is sexual, just to be on the safe side.”

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@Lurker

Cool–sounds like we’re actually pretty much on the same page :-)

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“The girl should be raised up to understand that men, as a rule, do not show extensive friendship or sympathy out of friendship only and the young man showing such exquisite kindness must be told off politely, unless the girl wants his affection”

I’m sorry but this is a load of horse pucky. I am friends with too many men, and in the past high school boys, with zero sexual interest on either side and they have been nice to me and I have been nice to them. This statement is as general and useless as, “girls date bad boys.” Which is also occasionally true but not often enough to paint the entire gender with the stereotype.

We don’t like bad boys. We like men who are not so cowardly that they can’t even express interest in us in a straightforward manner.

I’m sorry, Jacob, but your wooing method WILL. NOT. WORK.

Period.

End of story.

And stop telling women what we should think and how we should act. You’ve been told more times than I can count the best way to express sexual interest in a woman and NO amount of complaining how things should run or whining that it ‘s not fair will change reality for you. THAT is part of your problem right there. Stop expecting us to conform to your version on reality. You’re the one who wants something from women. It’s your job to act in a way that women do not find creepy in order to attempt to get what you want. It’s not the woman’s job to change the way she thinks in order to suddenly find your puppy-like devotion attractive. She’s not the one who wants something. Her responsibility in this is ZERO.

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“The girl should be raised up to understand that men, as a rule, do not show extensive friendship or sympathy out of friendship only and the young man showing such exquisite kindness must be told off politely, unless the girl wants his affection”

I’m sorry but this is a load of horse pucky. I am friends with too many men, and in the past high school boys, with zero sexual interest on either side and they have been nice to me and I have been nice to them. This statement is as general and useless as, “girls date bad boys.” Which is also occasionally true but not often enough to paint the entire gender with the stereotype.

We don’t like bad boys. We like men who are not so cowardly that they can’t even express interest in us in a straightforward manner.

I’m sorry, Jacob, but your wooing method WILL. NOT. WORK.

Period.

End of story.

And stop telling women what we should think and how we should act. You’ve been told more times than I can count the best way to express sexual interest in a woman and NO amount of complaining how things should run or whining that it ‘s not fair will change reality for you. THAT is part of your problem right there. Stop expecting women to conform to your version on reality. You’re the one who wants something from them so it’s your job to act in a way that they do not find creepy in order to attempt to get what you want. It’s not the woman’s job to change the way she thinks in order to suddenly find puppy-like devotion sexually attractive. She’s not the one who wants something. Her responsibility in this is ZERO.

Nice guys are not going to stop being creepy just because people don’t want them to be. Nice guys attempt to manipulate the feelings of an unsuspecting woman instead of honestly telling the woman what they want out of the relationship. We don’t need aggressive alpha males, but we are definitely never going to consider dating a person who doesn’t even have the balls to honestly approach us and express their interest in a straightforward manner.

Stop arguing and instead just LISTEN to what has been said in this thread. Go back and read the whole thing. More than once. And take in the helpful suggestions people have been making and stop complaining that things aren’t the way that you want them to be. That’s not the way life works.

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Peyton, your reaction was where I was at first. Then I went back and re-read Lurker’s comment, specifically the part where he’s talking about being the father of a daughter. At that point, I read his comment as about teaching some basic stuff about social interaction: I would give the book-carrying clarification to a daugher or a niece in the same way that I would tell a son or a nephew “look, if a girl says she can’t go see a movie with you because she has a lot of homework, it most likely really means she’s trying to tell you no without hurting your feelings too much.”

What I do have a problem with is Jason’s follow-up, where it seems as though he thinks that it’s okay if coded behavior and passivity carry over into adulthood. When you’re young and trying to figure out how to navigate interactions with people you’re attracted to, there’s always some passive hoping that everyone engages in. Then (hopefully) you grow up, and you realize that if you feel a certain way, it’s your responsibility to say something to the person you’re interested in, even if it’s scary and you might be rejected–it’s not their responsibility to come pick you out of a crowded room and whisk you off for romance.

There’s a big difference between “not being an alpha male type” and the XKCD comic that Sgaile-beairt posted the link to. You don’t have to be an alpha male (or alpha female!) to be able to say “hey, you know, we’ve been spending a lot of time together and I really like you. Could we try being more than friends?” If you’re a grown-up, being really nice to someone until they “get it” is a recipe for frustration, at best.

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Real quick, I have no idea why that posted twice. I am sorry about the duplication.

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MIB, as the mother of a Spectrum daughter with communication issues who also happens to be extremely pretty at 11 and is only getting prettier (prettiest damned Pokemon obsessive on the planet, IMO), I tend to take exception to the idea that it’s our responsibility to not only teach straightforward interactions to her, but now we’re also expected to teach coded behavior so that she doesn’t someday bruise a poor man’s feelings. Men aren’t the only people found on the Spectrum and the chances are that no amount of teaching her about “book carrying” (so much less creepy a euphemism than the potentially rapey beer buying, BTW) is going to get the message through to her.

If a boy offers to carry her books I am absolutely not going to teach her that she owes that boy anything except a thank you. If the boy can’t be straightforward and he gets his feelings hurt it’s his own damned fault and she is not to blame. Period. Anything else leads to creepiness and the potential that my daughter will get the idea that certain behaviors are supposed to be paid for in some manner, either with dating or sexual favors. Not. Going. To. Happen.

This whole thread has been extremely frustrating and triggery. I can’t stand that the Nice Guy conversation always swings around to the idea that women need to change the way they feel about creepy behavior, or the way they act when presented with creepy behavior, or the way they talk about creepy behavior. It’s not our problem. The protecting of men’s fragile egos is not our responsibility. We’ve got our own fragile egos to worry about. And many of us, and the percentage is MUCH higher in nerd culture, do not have the ability to speak in the code that Nice Guys depend on.

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As a complete aside I also wanted to thank MGK, John Seavey, and Jim Smith for this site. As someone said upthread, it’s one of the few places, along with Scalzi’s Whatever, Evanier’s blog, and Jim Hines blog and a few others that, as a female nerd, feels safe and supportive.

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Peyton, I absolutely agree with you, especially your second paragraph. Women have no obligation to change their reaction about creepy behavior. And if a guy carries a girl’s books/buys her a beer/whatever, she ABSOLUTELY does not owe him anything in return. I don’t so much mean clueing girls in to coded behavior so as not to hurt a boy’s feelings, I’m talking more about clueing kids in to coded behavior so that they have a better idea what the hell is going on when other kids are saying or doing vague or confusing things. I don’t know the ins and outs of raising a kid on the Autism Spectrum, so I’m sure you know better than I do whether that approach is effective for those kids. To me, one of the important points of what Lurker said was the “tell him off if you don’t want his attention” aspect.

I guess part of where I was coming from was my own experience with book carrying (literally)–when I was 13, a nice, good-looking guy in my grade started carrying my books for me. When he asked me out, I said yes, because I thought that’s what I was supposed to do (since he was nice and good-looking and carried my books); I said yes even though I wasn’t attracted to him, because at the time I had crazy high empathy and low self-esteem (thanks, emotionally abusive parents!) and I thought my feelings weren’t important. Naturally, our time as a “couple” ended up being strained, right up to the part where we broke up over the summer basically because I stopped talking to him (which I felt guilty about FOR YEARS, although it did help with growing up and saying how I really feel, which I mentioned upthread). In retrospect, I sorta wish someone had said to me “He’s carrying your books because he likes you, and you don’t have to ‘have a reason’ not to like him and you don’t have to let him carry your books. You can tell him to stop.” I think it would’ve saved a lot of pain for both of us.

Hope that clarifies what I meant, a bit.

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Jason said: “Ever heard the word “wooing” people. That’s all so many of these actions you’re condemning are, on the trying to get with women front.”

Jason later said: “The wooing comment was about doing nice things for people.”

So I post about how you should not make angry, semi-literate Facebook posts about how mean it is for pretty women to pretend to be nerds. Jason then says, “the behavior you’re condemning is actually ‘wooing’.” I then point out that it doesn’t seem much like ‘wooing’ to me. He says, “No, I was talking about totally different behavior.”

My question, then, Jason, is…why are you talking about that totally different behavior here? This is a post, and a thread, about a specific set of behaviors. You saying, “Yes, but other people do other things that aren’t that bad” is not relevant even if it were correct. Wait for one of the threads about guys who expect that emotional intimacy should be reciprocated with physical intimacy to make that stupid argument, okay? This thread isn’t about that.

@MIB: BTW, my wife wants you to know that our six-year-old was Ace at DragonCon. :)

@Peyton: Thank you for thanking me! That means a lot to me.

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A 6-year-old Ace? AWESOME

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Jim Sterling actually just did a video about on the topic of “Fake Gamer Girls” and why it is a bunch on nonsense on the Escapist.

Thought it was pretty good.

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“(so much less creepy a euphemism than the potentially rapey beer buying, BTW)”

I was actually trying for a situation between two guys… Guess my nuance didn’t work. ^-^()

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[...] to get geek boys to drool at them in their hot cosplay outfits and relish their power over men. John Seavey and John Scalzi and Devin Faraci rip into his argument (here’s a related post on the issue). [...]

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I’m sorry Ducky, I didn’t pick up on that. My brain went straight from wooing, to beer buying and skipped the middle. I’ll try to read better for content next time.

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There is something from the original post that is somewhat left out of this argument:

Mixed in with his arguments about them not being geeky enough — and in fact, I would say, this is the actual DOMINANT argument — was the fact that these women are not PRETTY enough to be cosplayers.

So boothbabes are okay because they’re ACTUAL hot, but these predatory girls are only CON-hot.

He’s not the defender of geekdom from those who would befoul it with Big Bang Theory references; he’s the defender of cons from women who are not supermodels and yet think they can dress up as comic book characters.

The phrase “die in a fire” is thrown around a lot these days…

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kingderella said on November 20th, 2012 at 5:04 pm

ducky: i find that post about autism and “rules learned from books” super interesting, and insightful, and i feel like i learned something!

another reason why its so important to have gender equality and diversity in comics (and games and other nerdy stuff), and sexism and stereotyping cant be tolerated!

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John Seavey: because I think the whole “geek guy” thing strikes me as similar to the “nice guy” thing.

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@Jason: And maybe there’s a reason those two things are similar.

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because people have dirty minds and like to judge others?

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Sure Jason, just keep telling yourself it’s all because of those mean people on the internet being all judgmental and stuff. Blaming others for their problems is something Nice Guys have a lot of practice with, after all.

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“Because people have dirty minds and like to judge others”

So…you’re talking about Tony Harris, right?

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Candlejack said on November 20th, 2012 at 8:49 pm

Jason, can I just ask the obvious question?

Has your method of pitching woo ever panned out for you? If not, have you ever seen someone else successfully use it in the real world?

Because I’ve never seen it work, and I’m pretty sure that’s because it doesn’t work.

(Also, I’d just like to point out that being a manipulative prick because you want a relationship is not, in fact, morally superior to being a manipulative prick because you want sex. You seem to think the purity of your intentions will matter to your target–they will not–and that people are only judging you harshly because they don’t understand what you really want. It’s not your desires that are the problem. It’s your methods.)

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To be perfectly honest I don’t date and have never tried to date, so it’s not my method. I deal with people as much as I can take during work and before that school so extra social activities are not something I go searching for.

I’m arguing purely from the theoretical point of view, because all of you are acting like it’s some horrible crime for a man not to be direct and aggressive seems ridiculous to me and that thinking the phrase ‘you’d be happier with me’ makes you a manipulative monster. I fail to see how a man showing off his personality and skills, even if he’s on his best behavior, is significantly different than a woman dressing in a certain way(and I’m not talking cons, I’m talking actively trying to attract attention) to get a guy to notice her. In fact it seems kind of deeper to me.

And as a person who’s almost never been comfortable, for one reason or another, around others it is possible to be uncomfortable around women without it being because you want sex they aren’t giving.

Hell, it’s possible to be sexually attracted to a woman and still not want to have sex with her, which is definitely good for making you uncomfortable.

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and I’d like to add Target?! What the fuck?

I’m not talking seduction through labor or something. “Hey, I’m your neighbor and want you to know if you need your garbage disposal fixed or a shoulder to cry on I’m here for you.” I’m talking about being nice to someone you know and who likes you already.

And if a nice guy might occasionally think bad of a girl he knows taste in relationships don’t people generally get tired of hearing about other people problems whatever they are, even people you really like or your family. Especially if it keeps happening.

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Now you’re just building strawmen. It’s not even worth knocking them down.

Speaking in terms of theories, Jason, I think you might be better off reading this dating thread over at Penny Arcade. Rather than an argument over the merits of Nice Guy-ism/Geeks who look down on cosplaying girls, it’s just a thread for guys to help each other figure out how to attract and date girls.

It’s got success stories, examples of the profiles they’re trying (since it’s based on online dating), tales of woe, and lots of encouragment, and none of it’s creepy or horrible. They’re pretty good guys over on PA. :) If this topic is something you really want to understand, I think reading a thread like this is a good way to get a handle on various “wooing” techniques any geek can try without getting called a creep. And it’s often quite funny, too.

http://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/149703/internet-dating-who-is-your-favorite-duck-and-other-dating-questions

Hey Candlejack, what did

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“I’m arguing purely from the theoretical point of view[...]”

Uh-huh. Okay, then take it from someone who’s talking from a practical point of view, this thing you’ve been going on about is still bullshit and all the theorywank in the world doesn’t change that. And I’m tremendously unsurprised to see that the person arguing on the pro Nice Guy side of things is someone who self-admittedly doesn’t have a hugely active social life.

Dirty confession time: back in my high school days I did the Nice Guy thing with several girls. I was not, at the time, aware of the Nice Guy Manifesto, and this might even have been before the particular essay that brought the issue into the online spotlight had even made the rounds, but the way I approached girls that I had an interest in was classic Nice Guy behavior. It was passive, it was disingenuous, and it absolutely, positively did. Not. Work. It didn’t work, Jason. Like, at all. It was horribly awkward for all parties involved…I can see that now in hindsight…and not only did I not get the girl(s) but once my quietly-held ambitions fell through it wound up pretty much souring any further attempts at friendship. I could have come out of those situations with some actual lasting friendships, but because I was approaching the relationship I had with these people with “I’m doing this to lay the groundwork for a relationship!” in mind, once that failed to manifest then it cut the bottom right out of relationships that had been initiated on false pretenses.

Thankfully I managed to miss falling into the “Complain bitterly about why don’t women like Nice Guys?” stage of things, but it would have been really, really easy to, especially when you’re young and stupid and you just feel like you got your heart broken, and it’s also easy for you to cling to those bad ideas past high school and carry them into your adult life where they will do you no favors whatsoever. I was lucky in that I managed to wrangle the self-awareness to realize that the way I approached the situation was stupid, but a lot of people don’t have that moment of realization or they don’t have a friend to tell them “Hey man, here’s your problem” and so they blithely go on their way, increasingly bitter and irascible at the fact that despite all their Nice Guy efforts they can’t get someone to date them.

Is it a crime to be passive in your search for a relationship? No, but it is stupid and counterproductive. When it gets bad is when guys fail to either realize or learn this and instead choose to blame anyone and anything other than their own actions for their failure. Society’s to blame! It’s the 21st century so why aren’t women asking ME out? Women are to blame! They only like bad boys/alpha males and not Nice Guys like me!

No, the problem isn’t any of that. The problem is that your approach sucks rocks. Again, you wouldn’t try to get a job by hanging around outside an office all day holding doors open for people in the hopes that they notice how nice you are. You want a non-platonic relationship? Then throw your fucking resume out there. You don’t have to be a PUA to be active and upfront about your intentions.

“And as a person who’s almost never been comfortable, for one reason or another, around others it is possible to be uncomfortable around women without it being because you want sex they aren’t giving.”

And you know what, Jason? That’s fine. You can be uncomfortable about whoever you damn well please. But when you decide that discomfort entitles you to tell women to fuck off out of gaming conventions because they’re a bunch of shameless fake attention-whores or because you’ve decided to blame them for your lack of success in the dating game, then you ARE an asshole. Doesn’t matter why you’re doing it. Doesn’t matter what theoretical justifications you want to faff about with. You. Are. An. Asshole. Full stop. The proper response to “I’m uncomfortable around women at geek conventions!” is either:

A). Figure out a way to deal with your shit and get over it, or

B). Stay the fuck out of geek conventions then.

It is not “angrily berate women and accuse them of being posers and predators out to steal our precious bodily fluids.”

“Hell, it’s possible to be sexually attracted to a woman and still not want to have sex with her, which is definitely good for making you uncomfortable.”

It certainly is. That’s called “being human.” You get used to it.

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Candlejack said on November 21st, 2012 at 4:40 am

Jason, I used the word “target” because that’s what women tend to feel like once they realize the Nice Guy who they thought was a friend has actually only been nice to them because he wanted something. It’s a pretty horrible feeling. A pretty scary feeling, really. Suddenly you realize that this person who has had total access to your life is somebody you really don’t know at all.

Does this help you understand why women feel creeped out by Nice Guys? Or are you simply incapable of making that empathetic leap?

(“Hey Candlejack, what did”

Uh, I think I might need a couple more words before I can answer your question, Ducky. Unless you want me to guess what the question might be and answer that, in which case: Rum.)

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I’m guessing what Ducky is doing there is making reference to the Candlejack meme where typing the character’s name causes you to disappear like saying it in the show.

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The other thing I feel like Jason’a missing here is that “wooing”behavior is not a binary proposition. It’s not a choice between being either an”agressive alpha male” or doing “nice things” solely because you’re hopingg for a specific response and then getting called out for Nice Guyism–there are a whole range of behaviors in between. Those first two “choices” are extremes on opposite. Ends of a spectrum, and most people find behavior at either extreme to be kind of creepy.

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(Sorry for the typos–BlackBerry issues)

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This thread was so much more interesting before Jason pooped on it.

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…seriously, though, could we maybe one day declare this a 101-free space and stop engaging people who want to rehash certain arguments that the rest of us have already been through too many times?

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I said: “…why are you talking about that totally different behavior here?”

Jason replied: “because I think the whole “geek guy” thing strikes me as similar to the “nice guy” thing.”

So in other words, my post reminded you of something totally different that you wanted to talk about more, so you started posting comments about that? Guess I should be happy you weren’t reminded of your prostate exam, then.

@MIB: “The other thing I feel like Jason’a missing here is that “wooing”behavior is not a binary proposition. It’s not a choice between being either an”agressive alpha male” or doing “nice things” solely because you’re hopingg for a specific response and then getting called out for Nice Guyism–there are a whole range of behaviors in between.”

Quoted for Truth. I am an extremely shy person, who resigned myself sometime during college to the fact that I would never date because I had no idea how to read signals and know a woman was interested in me, and so I knew I could never make the first move. I made lots of platonic female friends in college and beyond as a result. One of them finally got tired of dropping subtle hints that she was interested in me, and pounced me. :) On the surface, there was a similarity to the ‘nice guy’ relationship.

But the key is, I wasn’t marking time as her platonic friend until I could convince her to get into a relationship with me. That’s where the “nice guy” mentality comes in, that somehow being a good friend is banking up points that you can later cash in for a relationship. The fundamental difference between ‘nice guys’ and guys who are nice is that when they look back, guys who are nice say, “I really should have said something sooner.” ‘Nice Guys’ say, “She really should have noticed me.”

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Candlejack said on November 21st, 2012 at 1:35 pm

Thanks for the interpretation, Jason! Duh, so obvious now it’s been explained. :)

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All right, with all this talk of wooing behavior, I now can’t stop giggling, thinking about the NewsRadio ep where Joe and Catherine discuss the fine points of wooing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXV-qHt0ETQ, around the 8:20 mark, if you don’t know what I’m talking about. “Maybe you’re not doing it right.” “I do it the same way everybody does it.”

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Q: What’s the difference between fake nerd girls who prey on real male fans and guys who pretend to like Twilight to pick up chicks?

A: The second group actually exists.

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Two things:

1. Stupid labels are stupid. If you’re Beth Smith, a fan of ::INSERT “GEEK” PROPERTY HERE::, then you’re not a “geek girl”: you’re Beth Smith, a fan of ::INSERT “GEEK” PROPERTY HERE::.

2. Great response to someone who would deny the “cred” or whatever of a “geek girl”: “Yeah, that’s nice. Go fuck yourself.”

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[...] A person can go to comic-con in an elaborate costume simply because they enjoy the aesthetics and de… [...]

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[…] :: There’s been a lot of talk online about this whole “Fake Geek Girl” meme. It’s sexist and despicable and since I already wrote a bit about it on my Positive Cynicism column, I won’t go into all the reasons I despise this wave of bullying. But here are some excellent thoughts on the issue: first from Fortress of Soliloquy, then from John Seavey. […]

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