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mygif

@Jason: And maybe there’s a reason those two things are similar.

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because people have dirty minds and like to judge others?

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mygif

Sure Jason, just keep telling yourself it’s all because of those mean people on the internet being all judgmental and stuff. Blaming others for their problems is something Nice Guys have a lot of practice with, after all.

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“Because people have dirty minds and like to judge others”

So…you’re talking about Tony Harris, right?

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Candlejack said on November 20th, 2012 at 8:49 pm

Jason, can I just ask the obvious question?

Has your method of pitching woo ever panned out for you? If not, have you ever seen someone else successfully use it in the real world?

Because I’ve never seen it work, and I’m pretty sure that’s because it doesn’t work.

(Also, I’d just like to point out that being a manipulative prick because you want a relationship is not, in fact, morally superior to being a manipulative prick because you want sex. You seem to think the purity of your intentions will matter to your target–they will not–and that people are only judging you harshly because they don’t understand what you really want. It’s not your desires that are the problem. It’s your methods.)

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mygif

To be perfectly honest I don’t date and have never tried to date, so it’s not my method. I deal with people as much as I can take during work and before that school so extra social activities are not something I go searching for.

I’m arguing purely from the theoretical point of view, because all of you are acting like it’s some horrible crime for a man not to be direct and aggressive seems ridiculous to me and that thinking the phrase ‘you’d be happier with me’ makes you a manipulative monster. I fail to see how a man showing off his personality and skills, even if he’s on his best behavior, is significantly different than a woman dressing in a certain way(and I’m not talking cons, I’m talking actively trying to attract attention) to get a guy to notice her. In fact it seems kind of deeper to me.

And as a person who’s almost never been comfortable, for one reason or another, around others it is possible to be uncomfortable around women without it being because you want sex they aren’t giving.

Hell, it’s possible to be sexually attracted to a woman and still not want to have sex with her, which is definitely good for making you uncomfortable.

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and I’d like to add Target?! What the fuck?

I’m not talking seduction through labor or something. “Hey, I’m your neighbor and want you to know if you need your garbage disposal fixed or a shoulder to cry on I’m here for you.” I’m talking about being nice to someone you know and who likes you already.

And if a nice guy might occasionally think bad of a girl he knows taste in relationships don’t people generally get tired of hearing about other people problems whatever they are, even people you really like or your family. Especially if it keeps happening.

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mygif

Now you’re just building strawmen. It’s not even worth knocking them down.

Speaking in terms of theories, Jason, I think you might be better off reading this dating thread over at Penny Arcade. Rather than an argument over the merits of Nice Guy-ism/Geeks who look down on cosplaying girls, it’s just a thread for guys to help each other figure out how to attract and date girls.

It’s got success stories, examples of the profiles they’re trying (since it’s based on online dating), tales of woe, and lots of encouragment, and none of it’s creepy or horrible. They’re pretty good guys over on PA. 🙂 If this topic is something you really want to understand, I think reading a thread like this is a good way to get a handle on various “wooing” techniques any geek can try without getting called a creep. And it’s often quite funny, too.

http://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/149703/internet-dating-who-is-your-favorite-duck-and-other-dating-questions

Hey Candlejack, what did

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mygif

“I’m arguing purely from the theoretical point of view[…]”

Uh-huh. Okay, then take it from someone who’s talking from a practical point of view, this thing you’ve been going on about is still bullshit and all the theorywank in the world doesn’t change that. And I’m tremendously unsurprised to see that the person arguing on the pro Nice Guy side of things is someone who self-admittedly doesn’t have a hugely active social life.

Dirty confession time: back in my high school days I did the Nice Guy thing with several girls. I was not, at the time, aware of the Nice Guy Manifesto, and this might even have been before the particular essay that brought the issue into the online spotlight had even made the rounds, but the way I approached girls that I had an interest in was classic Nice Guy behavior. It was passive, it was disingenuous, and it absolutely, positively did. Not. Work. It didn’t work, Jason. Like, at all. It was horribly awkward for all parties involved…I can see that now in hindsight…and not only did I not get the girl(s) but once my quietly-held ambitions fell through it wound up pretty much souring any further attempts at friendship. I could have come out of those situations with some actual lasting friendships, but because I was approaching the relationship I had with these people with “I’m doing this to lay the groundwork for a relationship!” in mind, once that failed to manifest then it cut the bottom right out of relationships that had been initiated on false pretenses.

Thankfully I managed to miss falling into the “Complain bitterly about why don’t women like Nice Guys?” stage of things, but it would have been really, really easy to, especially when you’re young and stupid and you just feel like you got your heart broken, and it’s also easy for you to cling to those bad ideas past high school and carry them into your adult life where they will do you no favors whatsoever. I was lucky in that I managed to wrangle the self-awareness to realize that the way I approached the situation was stupid, but a lot of people don’t have that moment of realization or they don’t have a friend to tell them “Hey man, here’s your problem” and so they blithely go on their way, increasingly bitter and irascible at the fact that despite all their Nice Guy efforts they can’t get someone to date them.

Is it a crime to be passive in your search for a relationship? No, but it is stupid and counterproductive. When it gets bad is when guys fail to either realize or learn this and instead choose to blame anyone and anything other than their own actions for their failure. Society’s to blame! It’s the 21st century so why aren’t women asking ME out? Women are to blame! They only like bad boys/alpha males and not Nice Guys like me!

No, the problem isn’t any of that. The problem is that your approach sucks rocks. Again, you wouldn’t try to get a job by hanging around outside an office all day holding doors open for people in the hopes that they notice how nice you are. You want a non-platonic relationship? Then throw your fucking resume out there. You don’t have to be a PUA to be active and upfront about your intentions.

“And as a person who’s almost never been comfortable, for one reason or another, around others it is possible to be uncomfortable around women without it being because you want sex they aren’t giving.”

And you know what, Jason? That’s fine. You can be uncomfortable about whoever you damn well please. But when you decide that discomfort entitles you to tell women to fuck off out of gaming conventions because they’re a bunch of shameless fake attention-whores or because you’ve decided to blame them for your lack of success in the dating game, then you ARE an asshole. Doesn’t matter why you’re doing it. Doesn’t matter what theoretical justifications you want to faff about with. You. Are. An. Asshole. Full stop. The proper response to “I’m uncomfortable around women at geek conventions!” is either:

A). Figure out a way to deal with your shit and get over it, or

B). Stay the fuck out of geek conventions then.

It is not “angrily berate women and accuse them of being posers and predators out to steal our precious bodily fluids.”

“Hell, it’s possible to be sexually attracted to a woman and still not want to have sex with her, which is definitely good for making you uncomfortable.”

It certainly is. That’s called “being human.” You get used to it.

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Candlejack said on November 21st, 2012 at 4:40 am

Jason, I used the word “target” because that’s what women tend to feel like once they realize the Nice Guy who they thought was a friend has actually only been nice to them because he wanted something. It’s a pretty horrible feeling. A pretty scary feeling, really. Suddenly you realize that this person who has had total access to your life is somebody you really don’t know at all.

Does this help you understand why women feel creeped out by Nice Guys? Or are you simply incapable of making that empathetic leap?

(“Hey Candlejack, what did”

Uh, I think I might need a couple more words before I can answer your question, Ducky. Unless you want me to guess what the question might be and answer that, in which case: Rum.)

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mygif

I’m guessing what Ducky is doing there is making reference to the Candlejack meme where typing the character’s name causes you to disappear like saying it in the show.

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mygif

The other thing I feel like Jason’a missing here is that “wooing”behavior is not a binary proposition. It’s not a choice between being either an”agressive alpha male” or doing “nice things” solely because you’re hopingg for a specific response and then getting called out for Nice Guyism–there are a whole range of behaviors in between. Those first two “choices” are extremes on opposite. Ends of a spectrum, and most people find behavior at either extreme to be kind of creepy.

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mygif

(Sorry for the typos–BlackBerry issues)

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mygif

This thread was so much more interesting before Jason pooped on it.

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mygif

…seriously, though, could we maybe one day declare this a 101-free space and stop engaging people who want to rehash certain arguments that the rest of us have already been through too many times?

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mygif

I said: “…why are you talking about that totally different behavior here?”

Jason replied: “because I think the whole “geek guy” thing strikes me as similar to the “nice guy” thing.”

So in other words, my post reminded you of something totally different that you wanted to talk about more, so you started posting comments about that? Guess I should be happy you weren’t reminded of your prostate exam, then.

@MIB: “The other thing I feel like Jason’a missing here is that “wooing”behavior is not a binary proposition. It’s not a choice between being either an”agressive alpha male” or doing “nice things” solely because you’re hopingg for a specific response and then getting called out for Nice Guyism–there are a whole range of behaviors in between.”

Quoted for Truth. I am an extremely shy person, who resigned myself sometime during college to the fact that I would never date because I had no idea how to read signals and know a woman was interested in me, and so I knew I could never make the first move. I made lots of platonic female friends in college and beyond as a result. One of them finally got tired of dropping subtle hints that she was interested in me, and pounced me. 🙂 On the surface, there was a similarity to the ‘nice guy’ relationship.

But the key is, I wasn’t marking time as her platonic friend until I could convince her to get into a relationship with me. That’s where the “nice guy” mentality comes in, that somehow being a good friend is banking up points that you can later cash in for a relationship. The fundamental difference between ‘nice guys’ and guys who are nice is that when they look back, guys who are nice say, “I really should have said something sooner.” ‘Nice Guys’ say, “She really should have noticed me.”

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Candlejack said on November 21st, 2012 at 1:35 pm

Thanks for the interpretation, Jason! Duh, so obvious now it’s been explained. 🙂

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All right, with all this talk of wooing behavior, I now can’t stop giggling, thinking about the NewsRadio ep where Joe and Catherine discuss the fine points of wooing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXV-qHt0ETQ, around the 8:20 mark, if you don’t know what I’m talking about. “Maybe you’re not doing it right.” “I do it the same way everybody does it.”

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mygif

Q: What’s the difference between fake nerd girls who prey on real male fans and guys who pretend to like Twilight to pick up chicks?

A: The second group actually exists.

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Two things:

1. Stupid labels are stupid. If you’re Beth Smith, a fan of ::INSERT “GEEK” PROPERTY HERE::, then you’re not a “geek girl”: you’re Beth Smith, a fan of ::INSERT “GEEK” PROPERTY HERE::.

2. Great response to someone who would deny the “cred” or whatever of a “geek girl”: “Yeah, that’s nice. Go fuck yourself.”

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[…] A person can go to comic-con in an elaborate costume simply because they enjoy the aesthetics and de… […]

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[…] :: There’s been a lot of talk online about this whole “Fake Geek Girl” meme. It’s sexist and despicable and since I already wrote a bit about it on my Positive Cynicism column, I won’t go into all the reasons I despise this wave of bullying. But here are some excellent thoughts on the issue: first from Fortress of Soliloquy, then from John Seavey. […]

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