This time the WTF is not from 1970

“I don’t think evolution should be associated with our school,” parent Sherry Melby said.

Oh, don’t worry. I don’t think anyone will mistake you for modern humans after this.

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Why do school administrations continue to legitimize these people? There is no “debate” between evolution and creationism. There is no scientific controversy. Stop treating them as two equal and opposite theories. I’m going to go ahead and repeat that:

Journalists: STOP TREATING THEM AS TWO EQUAL THEORIES

Schools: STOP TREATING THEM AS TWO EQUAL THEORIES

Politicians: STOP TREATING THEM AS TWO EQUAL THEORIES

They’re not. One is an accepted and repeatedly proven scientific theory and the other is ONE religion’s interpretation of creation. Want to teach the controversy? Want to teach about the “conflicting views” on creation? Okay, go ahead. Teach each and every creationist theory for every religion in the world. Have fun. It’ll be an interesting theology class. But it’s not science. And it shouldn’t be treated as science.

I especially address this to the media. As a journalism student, the way stories are framed in the media is important to me. You do not need to remain “impartial” when it comes to evolution and creationism, if that impartiality means presenting them as two equally valid theories. By all means, present an unbiased account of these religious beliefs. It is important to report these things accurately. But don’t present creationism as an equal, alternative explanation for evolution.

(And yes, I realize that evolution is not abiogenesis and does not even try to explain the origins of life. I’m trying to keep things simple for people who can’t even understand that it’s a more valid theory than creationism).

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Yeah, they just matched it against a something with a religious connotation. Which is absolutely a horrible comparison – evolution doesn’t presuppose any religious denomination (or lack thereof). FFS, isn’t that the point of Intelligent Design – a way to include evolution without discounting a “designer” (God)?

Shit, someone should protest whatever their next shirt is – oh shit that has a trumpet. We don’t want our school associated with metallurgy and acoustics!

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I’m not usually very violent in my opinions, I proud myself on making the effort to understand other people’s views…

… but I would put a bullet inside each and every one of this creationist assholes, they piss me off like nobody else does.

You do not mess with Science, Science messes with you

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AMS, you beat beat me to it.
Also I have heard a report about a kid getting in trouble at school for wearing gym shorts that had the NIKE swoosh insignia on. Apparently at a PTA meeting someone suggested school uniforms consisting Hitler Youth uniforms to solve the problem. Seems like a good solution for this case too.

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I want to see the Brass Resurrectionists. I’m Christian and I don’t see what the big deal is. Is that really the biggest thing your scared of for public school kids? Cripes. I’m glad my neighborhood didn’t care about anything.

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If the worst problem your life has is the t-shirts on the high school marching band? Well fuck.

I can’t even.

I can only wonder what would have happened if the band kids had been largely minority and wearing evolution t-shirts. There might have been a riot.

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Ah, for the ancient days of the drumline wearing “Men Without Drum Hats”… which was roughly 1984 when they did that… And oh, irony, there were at least two… no wait three girls on the drumline…

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Wait, this is a PUBLIC school?

I grew up in religious Jewish youth groups, and we used some form of the evolution-diagram joke on a bunch of our T-shirts. Not even the strictest parents ever thought of it as a possible issue.

I think in the same way that some people sue over anything and everything, some people can take religious/moral offense at anything – and America is the only country in the world where the system doesn’t know how to say, “Yes, we’ve heard your complaint, but you are being f**king ridiculous.”

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Bluepard makes an excellent point!
Also, does anyone else feel like maybe it’s time to change the way schooling works? Maybe if governments deliberately set up faith school departments within public schools this crap wouldn’t matter, because retarded parents could opt out their kids from science without affecting the children of people with brains, and any kid who is opted out but is curious about rational thought will be exposed to kids who are being taught about evolution and such, so at least some of the knowledge would be available to them… it’s not a great idea, but neither is the country that leads the free world openly admitting that around half its population believe in the magic sky man, and we seem to rumble on ok.

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Before the replies start flying let me be clear: I realize what he was trying to say, I was just clarifying that a theory isn’t a proven fact, though there are a lot of people that tend to act/think it is. It’s a potential explanation backed by scientific evidence as I’m pretty sure he was trying to say in a later post. People can be just as vehement and ignorant about evolution as religious zealots are about creationism.

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“On the sixth day, God created BAND”

Surely that wouldn’t offend.

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Randy, the short answer is that evolution is a theory because we’re still working out the details.

Look up Theory in wikipedia for the detailed explanation, but evolution won’t become a scientific law until we understand it so well we can use it to predict development, instead of just understand what we see.

Yes, the linguistic quirk causes problems. But explaining it is a teaching opportunity.

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“Likely because they have no frame of reference for anything but a faith based belief system.”
Exactly. It’s all out of ignorance more often than not. I’ve known people like that all my life, where everything is viewed through religion-tinted glasses. These are the same kinds of people that automatically label things a “cult” or devil worship. Gah, I can still remember having that conversation with my grandmother when I started playing Magic the Gathering as a kid. :-p

Grazzt:
I wasn’t trying to refute anything at all and I agree that he’d likely take that stance (God the Watchmaker)and right now that’s pretty much my own position as well, for lack of a better way to phrase it. I came across that quote earlier in the day because a friend of mine had quoted it on another website and thought it pertained to this conversation in as far as Intelligent Design being considered a more science-based theory as opposed to a religious one- so I threw it out there because I found it interesting. I personally don’t have a problem with evolution, though I think the theory itself has flaws just as they all do. That’s why they’re still theories.

The point I was trying to make with my posts (though I admit that I didn’t do a very good job considering it was 6 in the morning and I was half asleep) was that whenever something stupid like this happens it’s important to remember that there are ignorant, closed-minded people on both sides of the fence. These types of conversations easily devolve into religion bashing sessions, which isn’t the issue. The issue is a group or moronic people lashing out at something that they don’t understand or have been taught to hate out of ignorance and stupidity and those poor students are the ones that have to suffer for it.

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Still, it should be noted that intelligent design and creationism are two separate things that tend to get lumped together.

Not really. Intelligent design is just creationism with a new name to get around that pesky constitution, since creationism isn’t allowed to be taught in schools due to the separation of church and state. One of the first “intelligent design” textbooks, Of Pandas and People, was originally a creationist textbook. They literally simply replaced the word “creationism” with “intelligent design” and “creationist” with “design proponent”, and kept everything else the same, so where originally you had
“Creation means that the various forms of life began abruptly through the agency of an intelligent creator with their distinctive features already intact. Fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, and wings, etc.”
now you had
“Intelligent design means that various forms of life began abruptly through an intelligent agency, with their distinctive features already intact. Fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, wings, etc.”
Of course, they weren’t all that clever about replacing the words.

Check out the Kitzmiller v. Dover case for more about this. But no, intelligent design is by no means more “scientific” than creationism. It is creationism.

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What’s so bizarre about a community of people deciding to ban something they find distasteful? It isn’t like they are going against the public opinion or anything. Let them live their lives in their blissful ignorance, and you can live your life in yours.

–Rawr

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We’re overlooking the real problem. Lucifer was a musician. Why are these students emulating Lucifer?

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“Intelligent Design is an inference from biological data, not a deduction from religious authority” – Thomas Jefferson

Randy B., that’s the most outlandish pseudo-Jeffersonism I’ve ever seen. Google traces this to a whackjob named Stephen Meyer. Swap the quote into Google and you’ll get to Michael Ruse disassembling him: http://www.pbs.org/thinktank/transcript1244.html

We do need to ask how so many American communities came to believe that Darwinism is an existential threat to them if there is nothing inherently “atheistic” about it. Personally, I think Will Rogers had it right. You don’t go trying to pass laws to prevent people from talking about who your ancestors were unless you’ve got something to hide.

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Nonsense to you, not to everyone. As far as I can tell, the odds that there is some intelligent design (label it as you will) behind all the intricacies and delicate balances that allows even a single lifeform to exist as it does are just as great as it all happening by some happy cosmic coincidence, especially given that mutations etc. are generally harmful and rejected by natural selection as opposed to being passed on.

BULL! SHIT!

There is no suggestion of intelligent design present in any form of life. This is not a 50/50 chance. There is not going to be some miraculous singular piece of evidence that tips the scale in your direction.

You creationist idiots just don’t fathom how low on the scientific totem pole you really are. You’re not neck and neck with evolution or abiogenesis. You’re not even fucking close.

Allow me to demonstrate by showing you ten pseudosciences that have more scientific merit than your intelligent design bullshit does:

10. Perpetual Motion – the applied notion of continuous energy has more merit than anything that could come from Creationism.

9. Faith healing – studying the psychological effects of desperate people who fall for this scam is worth more than anything Creationism presents.

8. Homeopathic Medicine – They are at least truthful when they say that there are no side-effects.

7. Seances and Divination of the Dead – Cold reading has more psychological merit than Creationism has scientific merit.

6. Phlogiston Theory – a notion based on actual observation of rusting metal and burning wood.

5. Astrology – Overtly ambiguous readings which are derived from factual Astronomical observations.

4. Alchemy – Intellectually retarded applications aside, the study of basic chemical reactions are still worthy of merit.

3. Parapsychology – At least there are tests to produce direct supporting evidence that ESP and other psychic phenomena exists in people. Those tests haven’t produced anything, but at least they have the tests. Creationists don’t have that much.

2. Paranormal studies – even a fake photo and odd sounds on tape recordings are more than what Creationism has to support it.

1. Storks delivering babies – a photo of a stork and a photo of a baby is more supporting evidence than anything Creationism has to offer.

ARE WE LEARNING YET?

As for mutations, life is NOT as delicately balanced as you would like to think. The reality is every human being carries over A THOUSAND genetic mutations from its parents while still maintaining the needed genetic material to form a fully functional human being.

I know you’d like to think that the complexities and intricacies of life would make it seem that its too good to be random or “by chance”, the reality is, that random chances and “odds” are not scientific terms. Random and “by chance” are metaphors which describe a series of dozens or thousands of measurable events that lead up to a singular conclusion.

Whereas a real scientist will spend years or even a lifetime trying to determine what each of those singular events are, the inbred Creationist/IDiot will merely shrug his shoulders and say “God done it” because “thems learnings iz too hard.”

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Err, most commenters seem to be missing the salient point..the people agaisnt the band shirt arent stupid, religious, ill-informed, etc but are desperately trying to hold onto a certain worldview. Its is a worldview that is rather authoritaria; with a set social patriachal hierarchy, and this hierarchy is derived from and suported by a strict interpretation of a the Bible. Any information that would seem to undermine the Bible (evolutionary theory, equal rights for guys, etc) must therefore be repressed, expunged, or other wise driven away. If you could question some of these people you find their views come either a local religious leader or a local leader with religious support. Other key signifiers are use of the terms ‘God’s will’, ‘God-fearing’, and ‘I know in my heart Jesus would…’. So reasoned discourse don’t work, and if you give these guys an inch they will go on and on for days. At best isolation in small geographical areas with large EXIT HERE signs for people who want out would be the best solution. As to why someone would go fo this, its a worldview where you know your place, your future and your kids future. People will willing chanin themselsves if you put it right. See Patriot Act for more examples of that thinking in action.

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Having God create evolution would entail accepting the mind boggling facts of deep time. This would undermine a belief a humna-centric cosmos that actaully cares about human and their egos. Deep time leads to non-egocentric thinking i.e. that the environment is not meant for us to whatvere we want with it. Can also lead to Lovecraftian view of the cosmos (we aint nothing but dust motes in a screaming drak void of alien unknowable madness). Nope, for many its a 6000 year old universe that is only for white Protestant not-to-educated older males and their current favorite toadies and honies. And thats the way they like it.

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“Nope, for many its a 6000 year old universe that is only for white Protestant not-to-educated older males and their current favorite toadies and honies. And thats the way they like it.”

Unfortunately that tends to be the representation of the more vocal segment of the population. Of course this is coming from a “heretic” former youth director that can’t land a church job here in the south because of my “liberal” stances on what should be taught to youth like: we should live a balanced lifestyle, not be zealots, not beat people over the head with our beliefs, treat the bible as a book we can learn from and not the “infallible, inerrant word of God”, we should think for ourselves, study the history behind things and know what we believe and why we believe it, not assume we’re right and everyone else is wrong, learn about other people’s beliefs, be open minded to new things, that science isn’t evil, that God doesn’t hate people: including people of a skin tone other than white or a lifestyle other than “traditional”. You know crazy, dangerous stuff like that.

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(Er, came across rather more aggressive than I really meant to. If your faith makes you a better or happier person, and especially if that faith is all that makes you practice any kind of morality, I’m glad you have it.)

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“If these people’s faith in God can be shaken so strongly by a T-shirt, they have far greater problems they should be looking at.”

Agreed.

@Candlejack
I think the point ultimately comes down to we don’t know for sure what happened one way or another, and while science certainly points to the most likely scenarios, there’s still plenty of room for conjecture and for people to believe whatever makes them feel the most comfortable. In the end arguing about it, or causing problems like the group in the article did, doesn’t accomplish anything but making things worse for all involved. Banning the T-Shirts was a bunch of PC bullshit, as I think we can all agree, regardless of personal beliefs on evolution, God, or the tooth fairy. Freedom of Religion doesn’t automatically = freedom from being insulted every time someone says or does something you don’t personally agree with. It’d be a different matter all together if the school was forcing kids that didn’t agree with the shirts for whatever personal reasons to wear it, but the information in the article never said anything to lead us to that conclusion and the school board made a mistake in bowing to the wishes of the parents that decided to make a huge issue of it. “You don’t like the shirts, don’t buy them or wear them.” Hell, I was in varsity band in a public school, in the south, on the Bible belt buckle, and our mascot was the freaking devil (The Red Devils) with a big picture of a devil on everything we wore.

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@Ambrael
“Sorry that I wasn’t clear.” Ha, no problem. I haven’t been as clear as I should have been either. It’s still been an interesting discussion and I agree with your comments. I think we were touching on a lot of the same things and just coming at it from different perspectives.

As for the rest, I find myself in a place of questioning and searching right now, so this topic just kinda hit me where I live so to speak. Up until a year ago I was a full time minister, and while I’ve always been fairly open minded and “liberal” as far as my personal views about religion etc. goes (especially compared to other ministers I’ve known), I’ve been through a lot of experiences in the last couple of years that’s left me questioning a lot of what I’ve not only put my personal faith in, but what I’ve devoted my life to and sacrificed for the past 12 years or so.

I guess that’s why I’ve been a bit all over the place in this topic because as I’ve been responding I’ve actually been evaluating just where I’m at personally, which has been an interesting process in itself. It’s one thing to be in your own head thinking about these things or venting to close friends, it’s another when it comes to having an active discussion with others that may have vastly different viewpoints from what you’re used to. I’ve enjoyed it and I appreciate all who’ve taken the time to respond, even if it’s been a little far to the left of the topic at times.

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John,
I’ve not once said that I reject evolution (which I don’t), or that I believe in Creationism (as it pertains to the “theory”). I’ve also said several times that I’ve been mistaken with my choice of words or, at times, have not been as clear as I should have been with what I was saying. In the post you’ve quoted (and in many following) I was simply trying to look at things from the other perspective, because conversations such as this one can often devolve into impolite bashing sessions (especially when religion is involved)- as I think you’ve done well in proving. I’m well aware of what a theory is. Like I said, I didn’t phrase that nearly as well as I could have. Had you actually taken the time to read the following posts in this discussion as opposed to flying off the handle and hurling insults at the first post you saw you might be aware of that.

I’ve not supported teaching creationism in schools in this post, nor do I in real life. I’ve been pretty adamant in several responses already that I think what happened in the article was ridiculous and wrong. I was simply pointing out that most religions believe in some form of creationism- not the “theory”, but the idea that we were created by a higher power or intelligent being of some sort, however it may have happened. That doesn’t make them all uneducated idiots, and it doesn’t mean that they all reject science, evolution, gravity, or whatever else you care to throw out there- though you may feel differently about them and, it seems, me. As hard as it will be, I’ll try not to let the fact that an anonymous person on the internet thinks I’m an idiot ruin my day.

I was under the impression that this was a comment section of a humor website/blog, not a professional debate or criminal trial. Next time I make the mistake of joining in on the conversation in the interests of fun and having a discussion, I’ll make sure to take it more seriously and have a 10 page research paper prepared on the subject to satisfy the few assholes that feel the need to tear random strangers down to inflate their own ego and sense of intellectual superiority as opposed to using their staggering intellect to actually read the posts and try to understand where the other person is coming from and not letting their own personal prejudices taint their response with unnecessary insults.

To the rest- I’ve enjoyed the conversation.

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You keep saying “rejecting evolution”, but if someone personally believes that evolution was originally designed or guided by a higher power how is that rejecting it? Sure, they may be rejecting the “completely by chance” portion, but that’s about it. I actually know, both personally and professionally, many highly educated men and women who believe that very thing- some of whom are research scientists that absolutely believe in evolution, support it being taught in schools (and even teach it themselves), etc. They’ve just applied their own personal spiritual beliefs to what they’ve found to be backed up by scientific evidence and to fill in whatever “gaps” there are that science has been unable to prove yet or is still a complete mystery. Perhaps that’s not good enough for you, but your opinion of them won’t affect them one iota, nor does it affect their jobs or the research that they do. They’re not uneducated or idiots, they just believe that there’s room to account for the possibility that there may be forces out there that science has yet to explain- such as God or whatever you care to place there. However, don’t bother to respond because it’s rather pointless. Besides, I got what I came for.

You see, I totally “get it”, I’m just working on gathering evidence for a theory of my own. My going theory is you’re a smug asshole who only sees what he wants to see in people’s responses because he’s blinded by his own perceptions about people and things- such as religion- and is incapable of talking like a rational, decent human being without being condescending or resorting to insults. So far I’ve been able to gather evidence to support my theory, and given your response I was even able to predict places to look for new facts! Science is great! (But it ain’t blowin’ me.)- Sorry, been thinking about that quote since this topic began and even went back to read MGK’s version of Civil War over again. Still hilarious!

Anyway, it’s a workable theory, though I think it may only apply to online interactions given the the relatively safe environment that quasi-anonymity and social detachment the internet provides. This is, of course, building off of the foundation of Penny Arcade’s “Fuckwad” theory laid out in regards to online game playing. For reference: (http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/215499488_8pSZr-L-2.jpg)

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