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NCallahan said on April 8th, 2008 at 9:17 am

Silly Doom… Richards already wrote a My Little Pony fanfic years ago and it got him, like, a hundred new friends on LiveJournal. And only three-fourths of them are prepubescent girls.

Richards totally gets laid at cons.

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karellan said on April 8th, 2008 at 9:46 am

Wait, was that first one real? “Shut your cow-mouth?” That sounds like something Weedmaster P would say at Overcompensating.com. Does Dr. Doom call people “dickass” as well?

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Man, after all this time staring at the dialogue, I just saw his FACE. It looks like he should be yelling, “IMA CHARGEN MAH LAZER!”

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Just because the latter ones were worse, that doesn’t make Bendis’ work good, in any sense of the word.

Doom’s character has a sophistication about him that puts him above using vulgar, commonplace language. Either that, or this is Marvel’s attempt to connect with the young, urban African-American.

I mean, seriously… cow-mouth?

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Fat piece of furniture? For real? Dooms, I’m looking at that ass, and I’m not seeing a morbidly obese chesterfield looking back at me. So now we know, it’s not the media that’s responsible for girls’ whacked out body image, it’s Doctor Doom. I’ll enjoy reading Cosmo a lot more now that I know who lurks behind the scenes. Fat piece of furniture, Jesus. Like he’s some kind of archvillainous South Beach Diet-loving alternate universe Leigh Keno.

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Zenrage is right, the problem isn’t just that it’s bad dialogue, it’s the fact that it’s very out of character for Dr Doom. Even if he is angry or trying to hide/deny some feelings, Dr Doom has no need to lower himself to gutter talk.

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You know, I can believe the rapping one.

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You win.

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Bunnyofdoom said on April 8th, 2008 at 11:04 am

Maybe it’s a doombot that access urban dictionary, and is using it in place of it’s doom routines.

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Bendis’s Doom sounds like an infuriated English-as-second-language speaker, not Victor von Doom. (Actually, I think even a Skrull would have passed a basic proficiency test in trash talk.) So pretty much every other panel is an improvement. That said, I do rather like “cow-mouth;” maybe it can be the new ‘Nuff Said and be featured in every Marvel title some month….

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zero democracy said on April 8th, 2008 at 11:12 am

I guess I just assumed he was letting the stress get to him or something.

I still really enjoyed the issue.

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malakim2099 said on April 8th, 2008 at 11:18 am

I hate Bendis’ thought bubble fetish for Mighty Avengers. Hate with a blinding passion.

And NCallahan, why do you think he hates Richards so much? Richards ripped off his fanfics! :)

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I think part of the problem is that the art entirely fails to match the (admittedly wretched) dialog. His stance and mouth suggest singing more than ranting.

Hmmmm…..

Close your eyes, start a journey through a strange new world
Leave all thoughts of the world you knew before!
Close your eyes, and let music set you free!

Only then can you belong to me….

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I’ve seen this twice now – can someone explain to me how “cow-mouth” is supposed to be any kind of vernacular? And “whore” (not, in this case, “ho'”) is also kind of non-idiom specific; lots of people use “whore” as an insult.

That is not to say that I think the writing is good, or am in any way defending it.

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Milkman Dan said on April 8th, 2008 at 12:19 pm

Like zero democracy said, I figured it was Dr Doom losing it. But that’s still bad writing. Seems to me that he’s been in waaaay worse situations and he didn’t lose it. Hell, he still had a plan, followed it through, and made his escape.

With that said, the panel where he offers tea is oddly creepy.

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The panel following that one, where Carol thinks to herself, “That actually hurts my feelings,” was just as bad. You mean to tell me the leader of a SHIELD task force is gonna sell that weak smack?

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“Your whore’s heart” isn’t even English; you can’t put two possessives on the same head noun in a noun phrase like it’s trying to do. He needs an attributive modifier like “whorish” in there instead.

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karellan said on April 8th, 2008 at 1:26 pm

There’s a comment or two here about the art, but really, the only thing I have to say about that aspect of the panel is that we once again have a giant closeup of some girl’s ass. It’s a common occurrence in comics, and it always surprises me how seldom hardcore comics fans actually notice. I mean seriously, based on what Doom is saying, I’m not really thinking this was the best way to convey the emotion the scene was calling for.

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Jesus Christ. He sounds like a Sin City villain. And I mean, EXACTLY like one.
(whoreswhoreswhoreswhoreswhoreswhoreswhores)

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Wow. Yeah. That’s good.

Here I was expecting you to show what Doom’s normal dialogue would sound like? Or maybe apply your gettysburg address approach to try and give a feeling that you do know Doom’s voice.

Oh, well, I did.

http://pacioccosmind.blogspot.com/2008/04/dooms-bad-day.html

Enjoy

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Michael: everybody else already did the “this is what Bendis SHOULD have written” shtick.

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I don’t think Doom would use the word “wench”, either. “Slattern”, maybe.

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Namorgasm said on April 8th, 2008 at 4:42 pm

Hahahaha. Five stars upon the internet is probably my favorite part of all of that.
I sorta noticed the prominent woman ass too. Both the dialogue and art in this panel is really, really silly in the original.

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Ken Raining said on April 8th, 2008 at 4:45 pm

Come on everybody, it’s just a Doombot.

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It’s bad writing, but it’s not so bad that the internet needs to get the torches and pitchforks . . . AGAIN. There’s so much outrage and snark over anything that they’ve really lost all meaning.

““Your whore’s heart” isn’t even English; you can’t put two possessives on the same head noun in a noun phrase like it’s trying to do. He needs an attributive modifier like “whorish” in there instead.”

Maybe Ms. Marvel has a whore, you know? It’s 2008; women can have whores too. And in spite of what Frank Miller and Family Guy would have you believe, whores have hearts too. They have feelings too, you know. Whores are people too.

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I like his dedication to old-fashioned Latverian values, though. He’s going to remove that cow-mouthed face with his own two sweaty hands. Doom doesn’t delegate, bitches.

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El Bastardo Magnifico said on April 8th, 2008 at 6:44 pm

Now everyone imagine what his dialogue would be if this wasn’t an all ages comic and proofread by editors…

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NCallahan said on April 8th, 2008 at 6:57 pm

“Madam, as much as you are an upstanding and respectable member of society, I humble posit that you are confused. You see, riveting as your company may be, I am Doom and it is to his business, not his pleasure, that Doom attends. In the realm of business, you play no role higher than that of a pawn, if I may be blunt. My apologies, but such are the moors of our dehumanizing age.”

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I think that all the “ZOMG, I HATE this, blablabla” is again the over the top internet idiocy, as usual. Because, y’know, one panel of bad writing ( or clever one… maybe that wasn´t really Doom ) makes Bendis THE WORST WRITER EVAH!!!111oneoneeleven … not taking into account that the rest of the issue was really very good and that feeling “hate” over one mildly baffling comic scene seems to be an unproportianate overreaction.

Oh, and thought bubbles? Excellent, I hope they do *more* of them, I like the look into the characters psyche.

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“Latveria dominates in hip-hop as it does in all things.”

This site makes me laugh harder and longer than any other comics site I’ve wasted copious amounts of time on.

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As a general rule, Bendis doesn’t do gravitas good. It’s not really his thing.

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NCallahan said:

but such are the moors of our dehumanizing age.

I gotta say, if he was gonna be a racist, Doom would definitely be an anachronistic racist.  Good call.

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Huh…

What is this fixation Marvel has of calling any woman not on the verge of anorexia “cow” as an insult…

I remember when Psylocke (pre-sexy ninja) was called that all the time by people she was fighting.

As someone else alluded to earlier, that clunky dialog has to e proof that Doom was replaced by a Skrull. At least, that is what I keep telling myself.

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Comment to Magnus:

I don’t think the issue is that this one panel makes Bendis the “WORST WRITER EVER” (Comic Book Guy voice) but it is indicative of his usual level of writing and of one habit that annoys many – if not most – Marvel Comics readers. I.E. Most of his characters sound exactly the same and unless he is writing one of his favorites, the characters who have a well established vocal pattern sound out of character.

As for me, I’m just hoping that the line was supposed to be “Shut your whore-mouth or I’ll remove your face by hand before I stop your cow’s heart!” but that the editors decided “whore mouth” was unacceptable in a nominally All Ages Book.

True, this is only somewhat less grammatically correct that the version we see… but at least “whore-mouth” and “cow’s heart” make sense..

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“What is this fixation Marvel has of calling any woman not on the verge of anorexia “cow” as an insult…

I remember when Psylocke (pre-sexy ninja) was called that all the time by people she was fighting.”

I’d say it’s much less a Marvel thing as much as a horrid insight into modern society. I mean, just look at the ugly stuff that has been flung around during the current US presidential race.

we’re still clinging to all our -isms, despite all the progress we’ve made.

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You know, the boogers one really grows on you after awhile, particulary if you read it out loud.

Downside is you get some very strange looks from the cat…

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“Latveria dominates in hip-hop as it does in all things.”

…The thing is, this kind of reads in character. More than what actually got published, anyway.

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Rob Brown said on April 9th, 2008 at 12:19 am

Okay, Bendis isn’t always this awful, but if that’s a sample of his version of Doom and if there are up to 22 more pages of that then most, if not all, of us here can write better. I don’t just mean “this sucks,” I mean that most of us here who have read stories with the character and know his style of speech CAN write better, for reals. No exaggeration.

Fuck, I’ll make something up totally off the top of my head that sounds more Doomish and less ridiculous. The bar isn’t set that high. Here goes.

“Your fate is of no concern to Doom. Now be silent, or I will make you silent.”

I’m not saying that’s great, but in I think it’s more in character for Doom to say that than talk about cowmouths and whorehearts.

Mr. Bird, the fact that Bendis has a steady job and you’re not writing LoSH or anything else is a crime against humanity (or at least the humans who read comic books and expect a certain level of quality). I weep.

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Magnus: maybe that wasn´t really Doom

I’m certainly willing to allow for that possibility. Although it seems like if that’s supposed to be the shocking twist that suddenly makes Doom’s odd dialogue make sense in retrospect, Bendis is tipping his hand by making Doom’s dialogue so odd that you instantly think this has to be a malfunctioning robot or an impostor or a Skrull on meth, which telegraphs the twist.

shipwack: What is this fixation Marvel has of calling any woman not on the verge of anorexia “cow” as an insult…

I remember when Psylocke (pre-sexy ninja) was called that all the time by people she was fighting.

Based on the context in which I’ve seen the insult used, it’s not comparing a woman to a cow in terms of size but rather in terms of unpleasantness. Cows are smelly, dimwitted, unattractive things that stand around with a stupid look on their face, which seems to be roughly how Doctor Doom feels about Ms. Marvel in the relevant scene.

I’m not shocked at all that Psylocke has been called this because it’s the sort of creatively sexist remark Chris Claremont loves putting in the mouths of less-than-chivalrous villains. Come to think of it, that’s what’s wrong with this Doom dialogue–it’s Bendis trying to sound like Claremont writing Sebastian Shaw.

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Rob Brown: So, did you actually *read* the issue? Because, if you didn´t, as your response makes almost clear, you maybe should do so, before declaring all of Dooms dialogue terrible and “weeping” because Bendis got a job. I read Ultimate Spiderman, Mighty Avengers and New Avengers, and he really is an excellent writer, IMO. His plots have depth, he manages to plan ahead and he doesn´t rely on foul language, shock value storylines or some of the other tropes which make people like Millar, Ellis or Morrison so popular, but on plain old good storytelling. While I appreciate Mr. Birds writing ( why would I otherwise come back daily to check out if there has been another humorous and well written update, or if he managed to scrounge up another Count Count video or made another excellent photoshop montage ), he still compares rather poorly to what I perceive to be one of the most talented ( and fastest! ) writers in the industry. Maybe that´s because he isn´t, y’know, writing three of the most popular Marvel books at the same time and doing the most important event series of the year. ^^

Jim Smith: True, if that wasn´t Doom, then it appears to be a bit blatant foreshadowing, but then again, the whole Secret Invasion shtick relies heavily on big red neon signs pointing down on characters, screaming “Look, s/he MAY be Skrull!”. If Doom turns out to be one, this one will have been not a red herring. If he turns out to be the real deal, then it was a very unusual outburst for him, because Doom is not known for losing it like this and stepping down his rethoric in this way.

Yet, as I said before, even if Bendis screwed up, it does not warrant the circular fanboy firing squad, because he still manages to write otherwise excellent comics, writes three+ of them every month and otherwise respects the characters more than I can say about a lot of other more “edgy” writers ( hint: their names are mentioned in this very post ), which never seem to catch much flack with a certain portion of the internet fanbase, who somehow tend to dislike Bendis.

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Yet, as I said before, even if Bendis screwed up, it does not warrant the circular fanboy firing squad, because he still manages to write otherwise excellent comics, writes three+ of them every month and otherwise respects the characters more than I can say about a lot of other more “edgy” writers ( hint: their names are mentioned in this very post ), which never seem to catch much flack with a certain portion of the internet fanbase, who somehow tend to dislike Bendis.

Um… personally, I don’t care much about Bendis one way or the other, but (a) this particular panel of dialogue blows, period, and (b) to the extent that Ellis and Morrison don’t “catch [as] much flack” on the Internet” as Brian Michael Bendis, it’s because they’re (gasp) much, much better writers. Transmetropolitan and Preacher, e.g., aren’t great because of “foul language” or “shock value storylines,” and if that’s all you’re getting out of either then I would humbly suggest that you’re missing the point.

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As for a.) Yep, as I also said, it certainly isn´t what I´d expect from Doom, but I´ll wait if something comes of it, instead of instantly overreacting.

b.) I haven´t read the comics you mention, as I mostly stay with Marvel comics, so I judge those writers on what they have produced for Marvel. So far, not impressed. Bendis, however, almost always impressed. Opinions, of course, vary wildly between different fans, so I hope you keep that in mind in regards to my response.

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Rob Brown said on April 9th, 2008 at 10:23 am

Jim Smith: …you instantly think this has to be a malfunctioning robot or an impostor or a Skrull on meth, which telegraphs the twist.

Wow, I was going to say almost the exact same thing in a post elsewhere (I didn’t think of the meth part, but that does seem as logical an explanation as anything else). Get out of my head, Smith! :)

Magnus: So, did you actually *read* the issue? Because, if you didn´t, as your response makes almost clear, you maybe should do so, before declaring all of Dooms dialogue terrible and “weeping” because Bendis got a job.

I didn’t read the issue. But I did read the Illuminati one-shot written by Bendis, and I wasn’t impressed. Neither was this guy.

After having read that, and being aware of his role in Avengers Disassembled, I wasn’t exactly a huge fan of the guy. I didn’t despise him or anything, and I still don’t. I just don’t think he’s that great of a writer, frankly.

Even if all the rest of Doom’s dialogue in this issue is entirely in-character, fucking up this badly for even a single panel is too much. Doom simply does not talk like that. Doombots or Skrulls pretending to be Doom don’t talk like that. These lines actually make Sally Floyd’s tirade to Captain America look eloquent. (And btw, did anybody save what MGK did with that?)

J.M. DeMatteis may be a capable writer, but he was never able to write good Spidey dialogue. Claremont is a better writer than DeMatteis IMO, and he wasn’t able to write great Spidey dialogue either. But that was okay, because not everybody can capture Peter Parker’s sense of humour or come up with new and good Spidey wisecracks month after month. These particular people should just not write Spidey, and they definitely shouldn’t write Deadpool. If they have to include either in a story, they should get somebody else to script the parts with those characters.

I wouldn’t have thought it possible to similarly screw up Doom, but I guess it is. John Francis Moore, Tom DeFalco, Chris Claremont, Jim Shooter, Ed Brubaker…all of those guys and more know how to write Doom dialogue. Bendis? Not so much, apparently.

I do seriously think that MGK would do a much better job. His “I Should Write The Legion” series proves that he can come up with good ideas. He’s shown he can write serious dialogue in addition to comedy (such as the end of his “Death of the New Gods” parody, and Spider-Man’s dialogue here). I’m being a total kiss-ass, but I don’t give a shit. The legal profession’s gain in the comic industry’s loss.

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Hey, not disagreeing with you here that MGK knows how to write well, but even if one single panel features an out of character moment, it doesn´t deny the hundreds and thousands of other excellent pages Bendis has written. But I think I´ll bow out of the discussion at this point, because, as usual, one cannot win an argument on the internet, just continue it endlessly. But because this *is* the internet, and firing a parting shot across the bow is a time-honored tradition when one tires of argueing in circles, I will say that I wasn´t impressed with this apparent slip up by BB, but it does not negate the excellence of the rest of the issue. Saying it does is a bit of a girly hissy fit, IMO.

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I haven´t read the comics you mention, as I mostly stay with Marvel comics, so I judge those writers on what they have produced for Marvel. So far, not impressed.

You mentioned “foul language.” What Morrison or Ellis series are you referring to? I can’t recall Marvel letting them get away with R-rated dialogue.

*NB: Sorry, Preacher is Ennis; mea culpa. Still, fair point that Morrison’s best work has arguably been for DC: e.g., Arkham, The Invisibles, etc.

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http://outpoor.com/illustration/buckleydoom.jpg

Just popped into my head this morning. Probably seems funnier due to my current lack of sleep.

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Rob Brown said on April 9th, 2008 at 3:09 pm

In fairness to Bendis, I stopped by my LCS earlier and flipped through the issue in question looking at all the Doom dialogue except for his thought bubbles.

I think the rest of what Latveria’s ruler says is adequately Doomsy in tone and choice of words. The single panel isn’t representative of the quality of the whole thing. Having said that, I stand by my belief that the quality of the dialogue in that single panel is very bad and that a better writer would have said to himself “Hey, that’s pretty bad. I’d better replace it with something that isn’t bad.” :p

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All this talk of Doombots (which is, in reality, Marvel’s ongoing excuse for why they fucked up Dr Doom “this time”) has made me wonder something.

Why hasn’t Dr Doom taken over Master Mold and then used him to build giant Doombots?

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Adam: I may be conflating here some authors, and a bit of Ennis may have slipped in. I´d rather get back to saying that their plots don´t really do it for me ( and sometimes absolutely infuriate me… drug-addled Magneto? Really? I mean, *really*? ).

Rob: Hey, we did get on the same page. I think you said it very well in regards to that single panel. :)

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El Bastardo Magnifico said on April 9th, 2008 at 9:09 pm

Magnus: His plots have depth, he manages to plan ahead and he doesn´t rely on foul language, shock value storylines or some of the other tropes which make people like Millar, Ellis or Morrison so popular, but on plain old good storytelling.

I don’t know how to not sound like a jerk while doing this, so if anyone agrees with me can you please word this to be more eloquent?

Depth: There is nothing deep or meaningful about Wolverine revealing his love of Wendys fast food or secretly wishing his wiener grows back bigger every time it’s destroyed. Nothing.

Shock value storylines? Disassembled,House of M,Secret Invasion ,Jessica Jones'(Foul Language!) liason with the all new, all N-word using (Foul Language!), all back door loving Luke Cage, Ultron with breasts, or the Tigra snuff film don’t count?

Plain old good storytelling: If you can tell me a storyline from Bendis’ 616 hero stuff that doesn’t follow the formula of “Street-level Heros and Guy Who Can Do Anything quip, Street-level heros and Guy Who Can Do Anything get in over their heads fighting, Guy Who Can Do Anything does something/Deus Ex Machina and/or Someone other than Street-level Heroes and Guy Who Can Do Anything save the day/Deus Ex Machina” aside from when they took down Wrecker I’d be willing to hear it. Also it’s in bad taste to criticize other peoples work you admit you know nothing about. All this was written by someone who used to love Bendis’ stuff. I don’t know if it’s my discovery of the formula, realizing what was cool and edgy isn’t so much after five or so years of using them, or him just simply spinning his wheels at this point, but his stuff has been bad.

p.s. It wasn’t a drug, it was a sentient, mind-controlling virus/bacteria masquerading as an ability enhancer.

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in re: ‘cow’

It’s a classic Claremont insult, but it’s generally used BY one woman and directed at another. Claremont females calling one another cows are hard to avoid running into in enclosed spaces, but I can’t recall an instance of a Claremont male using the word. … which isn’t to say it never happened, since an encyclopaedic knowledge of Claremont Canon is something I can’t claim, praise be to God.

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From “Oh, Dearie me!” I heard it in Jonathan Harris’s voice. It made it all worthwhile.

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I have to say that I’ve liked Bendis’s work for the most part, particulary his Ultimate Spiderman & Powers. This bit just didn’t ring true for the character.
Sorry to hear that he’s become one of the internet’s current whipping boys, though. Is there perhaps a list somewhere that I could get so I know who’s being hated this week?

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[…] misogynist dialog Brian Michael Bendis put in the vented mouth of Doctor Doom, I thoroughly enjoy the alternatives thunk up by MightyGodKing. Here’s one of […]

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are you all retarded!!!

Its all MF DOOM rhymes…. the rapper who wears the DOOM mask? Anyone. He made the amazing “The Mouse and the Mask” disc with Danger Mouse? It was based on Adult Swim? ANYONE!

anything you said in the comments section here is STUPID if you don’t realize what the reference is. JESUS!

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whoever writes doom dialog like this should be assraped with a hot poker.

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JerksWithWhips said on February 21st, 2011 at 12:42 am

Those are just lulz.

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Guys you’re expecting bendis the guy who rapes any character he doesn’t like(scarlet witch: no srsly disassembled & HOM were her OMD)
to write proper DOOM dialogue
i think victor would” Bah!your team of pathetic fools can’t even have the slightest chance of scratching my armor let alone defeat DOOM monarch of latveria &…by the way woman ,may DOOM ask in all honesty why your posterieur is ludicrously looming in the foreground? DOOM means what goal does that serve?”

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