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mygif

Before I get called out for my implication that I’m being a bigot myself for implying that Ismlamists might be anti-semetic, I’d like to propose a little challenge. Everyone seems capable of finding someone who’ll be willing to speak up for Islam itself whenever it’s under attack. However, can you find any glowing praise for Judaism from any practicing Islamists? How about the Islamist preachers? The followers? Their wives and children? Be sure to follow your claim with resources – no hearsay involved. An essay about the virtues of Jews from a believer of the Islamic faith would be greatly appreciated.

I’d be very interested in seeing your results!

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mygif

Let’s remove as much racial or religious weight from the discussion of why a particular word or words are “ok” when spoken by one person, and “bad” when spoken by someone else.

I grew up with my family. We’ve gone through good times and bad. If I call my mother a bitch, I’ve earned the right to do that (though other family members may disagree, either regarding the term, or the appropriateness of me calling her a name at all). However, myself and every member of my family would be up in arms if someone outside my family called my mother a bitch. The reason? We’re a community. A small community, but a community nonetheless, with shared history.

THAT is the difference between one black person referring to another as “nigger” as opposed to a person of ANY other background referring to a black person that way. It goes for any social, racial, religious, or economic words that are used as epithets, as well. If you’re part of a community that has a history like that, there ARE words that you get to use in regard to yourself and others in your community that would be offensive if used by someone who isn’t part of that community.

Is it “fair”? Define fair when it comes to that kind of shared history. Then we can talk about whether it’s “fair.”

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mygif

However, their religion is extremely harsh towards any OTHER religion, especially Judaism.

Bwahahahahaha!

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mygif

@ Skemono Was that supposed to be a refutation? In the very article you linked, it refers to the concept of Dhimmi. Sure, you can practice your religion, but you can’t build a church, or convert Muslims to it, and you have to pay a special tax in order to practice your religion, and you’re literally a second class citizen, but otherwise, it’s all good! Be Jewish (or Christian) all day long!

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mygif

You cannot tar all Muslims with the same brush. Or any group for that matter. And you can’t hold one person responsible for another man’s actions. “But they’re, the same race/religion/height/zodiac sign, they all have the same nefarious intentions/thoughts.”

Sounds pretty ridiculous right? As an African-American I can say that White Christians instituted chattel slavery and the suppression of human rights and only be half right. Another group of White Christians were champions of abolitionism. They essentially read the same book, yet had different interpretations of it.

It would be small minded and vulgar to resent all White American Christians for the beliefs and actions of the few. You shouldn’t hold the Quakers accountable for the crimes of Other Protestant Christians. You can’t say all Christians are crazy because David Koresh thought he was Jesus.

Terrorism is not something all Muslims are involved in, a very small percentage engage in this politically motivated behavior. Certain groups in Islam pervert the Qu’ran to meet their agendas to tragic results. But the greater majority of Muslims cannot be held responsible for the behavior of the few, and shouldn’t be punished for the actions of the few.

The people that committed these atrocities were easily manipulated by the hype and slick words of a few twisted, self serving sociopaths. They became puppets and instruments of destruction and fear because they couldn’t see past their despair and outrage. If you really think you are better than them, then do what they didn’t and use your ability to reason with logic and honesty. Do not deny another human being their God given right to a life of happiness and fulfillment. Do not be an instrument of destruction and fear.

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mygif

@LashLightning

YES.

Republican (and some Democrat) reps recently voted down care for 9/11 first responders, and maybe three days afterwards, all hell broke loose on this issue. BOY, ISN’T IT FUNNY HOW LIFE WORKS. These people are gutless.

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mygif

Yes, the Middle Ages were a time when Christians were utterly corrupted by the Church, and effectively suppressed any discoveries that went against their faith. Eventually, through a long slog through history and reason, they were able to reconcile their diferences to the point where Scientists and Christianity can co-exist their beliefs together.

Trouble is, Islam is still mentally stuck in the Middle Ages. They’re on a crusade to convert anybody who thinks otherwise, and won’t rest until the whole world thinks that way. If anybody (and I mean ANYBODY) attempts to strike up a reasonable arguement (such as letting covered-up women have more freedom), they’ll lash out with vitrol for even SUGGESTING such a thing. Usually, the arguement is a variation of, “It’s always been done this way before.” While completely ignoring the instances where following such a ritual in another country with different values would be counterproductive.

Of course there are ultra-orthodox faiths where they obey the rule of the written text to the letter, but by far, they’re mostly a minority. But Islam is a faith where the majority HAVE to be orthodox to be taken seriously. Otherwise they’re betraying their honor by failing to do so. Honor is a BIG thing in Islam, usually dominated by the Father, where even the slightest transgression of their children can be seen as a challenge to their control over their family.

Islam is an authoritariative religion where obedience is more important than independant thought. If anybody strays outside the path, they must be dealt with, usually with force. Just look at how they treated someone who converted from Islam to Christianity:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/08/somalia-muslims-murder-convert-from-islam-to-christianity.html

All of this of course is done in the name of love and peace. If that isn’t the definition of a cult, I’m not sure what is.

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mygif

One tenet of Islam is to seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave. I always interpreted that as finding out things on your own. We’re supposed to read the Qu’ran everyday. And read the complete Qu’ran in the month of Ramadan. But I was raised in America, I’m not sure how it goes down other places in the world. But I have personally asked Imams and Scholars about topics that were unclear to me and was never brow beaten or outcast.

Some traditions people hold on to are regional and tied to older cultures in the Arab world that because Islam originated in that area are tied to the religion.

In understanding the Qu’ran, there are a few historic supplements that offer perspective. Some of the scripture is parable, some is literal and some is tied to specific situations. A scholar studies the Tafsir, literature that details when verses and chapters were revealed. It’s not an easy religion I will admit that. If you want to get a deeper understanding you can’t just scratch the surface.

As far as what people do and what the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad did there is a pretty great divide jut like how a lot of followers of Jesus don’t follow his example. People allow their insecurity to overshadow their compassion. Harsh dogma and judgment over shadow the tolerance both of these men exhibited in their lives. Quick to revel in the faults of others and avoid working on their own issues. You know how it goes even without a religious context. If you can project your short comings on someone else, a passionate demonstration of their faults can veil your weaknesses.

Islam is not a cult. It’s a very strict religion or way of life. And a mob mentality exists in all societies. Any example of irrational mob violence in the heat of the moment you find with Islam you will find in other faiths and ideologies. We as humans are very emotional and emotions are very much transferable. Sadly there are people in the world that seek to manipulate our emotions and attitudes to bring about their desired behaviors. If we can work on dealing with people as people first without condemning them with negative labels and biases the world would be a much better place. If it’s always “us” and “them” there will always be conflict. Because we always want what’s best for “us.”

Be an example of truth justice and humility and that’s what people will see.

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mygif

“Trouble is, Islam is still mentally stuck in the Middle Ages. ”

I wish. Islam in the Middle Ages was loads more progressive and invented math.

“. They’re on a crusade to convert anybody who thinks otherwise…”

Stop right there before you hurt yourself. Islam is not some monolithic organization. You say “they” refuse to let covered-up women have freedom? Have you seen Daisy Kahn, wife of Imam Rauf? Not even a scarf on her. Therefore she is – what, not a Muslim?

You’re an idiot who is looking at extremist theocrat loons and assuming they’re the baseline.

Oh, and the woman who runs that website you linked to is the same one who said “Sarah Palin didn’t quit. The lower 48 needed her and she heeded the call.” So quite apart from her being a hate-mongering opportunist, she’s clearly an idiot.

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mygif

““Nigger” is taboo because when someone who isn’t black uses it, it’s one-word shorthand for “you are less human than me based on the colour of your skin.” Which is why black people can use it, because when one black person says it to another, they’re both black and that shorthand doesn’t apply.”

Exactly.

Speaking as a Black man, this has always been my opinion as to why eyebrows are raised when non-blacks use the word. Now it’s true, the word can be used by Blacks in a negative context (the character of Uncle Ruckus from the Boondocks for example, shit Alan Moore imo even squeezed in a little commentary about the word in “Watchmen”) and by Non-Blacks in a non-offensive context.

But most times, it’s usage by non-Blacks is viewed as racism spewing out in verbal form. And frankly, given history, privilege, and the perception of Blacks as a whole, it’s a pretty safe assumption.

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mygif

Sure, you can practice your religion, but you can’t build a church, or convert Muslims to it, and you have to pay a special tax in order to practice your religion, and you’re literally a second class citizen, but otherwise, it’s all good! Be Jewish (or Christian) all day long!

Which makes it about infinitely better than Judaism and Christianity.

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mygif
Everybody's someone else's.... said on August 27th, 2010 at 2:00 am

—- KD
Now it’s true, the word can be used by Blacks in a negative context (the character of Uncle Ruckus from the Boondocks for example, shit Alan Moore imo even squeezed in a little commentary about the word in “Watchmen”) and by Non-Blacks in a non-offensive context.
—-

Thank you, it’s part of the point I’ve been trying to get across. White + “Nigger” =/= racist.

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mygif
Mister Alex said on August 27th, 2010 at 9:06 am

It bothers me when people talk about “respecting the sensitivities of the victims’ families”.

Innocent Muslims were in the Towers when the planes struck, and they were murdered along with all the others. Perhaps their families would like to be able to pray and grieve within two blocks of Ground Zero, as is their right.

So when people bring up the “respect the victims’ families” argument, it sounds to me like they mean “respect the Christian victims’ families, and pretend that the Muslim victims never existed, or simply don’t count”, and I simply can’t get on board with that.

I would think that once the point is raised that “there were innocent Muslim victims too”, this whole debate should just stop and the community centre should be built with no further outcry.

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mygif

Salmo said in response to:

“Trouble is, Islam is still mentally stuck in the Middle Ages.” I wish. Islam in the Middle Ages was loads more progressive and invented math.

Yes, they developed a system that’s still in use today, but what have they discovered or invented recently? A look at the number of Muslim Nobel Peace Prize winners is below ten people, and Yasser Arafat doesn’t count.
http://www.islamichistorymonth.com/education/nobel.php

In comparision, Jewish people have a much higher success rate in multiple fields. Of the 750 Nobel Prizes that were rewarded, at least 163 were Jews:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/nobels.html

To put things in comparision, Muslims make up 1.57 Billion people, while Jewish people make up 0.02% of the human population. In fact, the most critically acclaimed Muslim literatures have been in response AGAINST their religion than FOR it. A culture raised in fear doesn’t leave room to grow.

To get an idea of how backwards they are, in Ayaan Hirsi’s Nomad, she told the amazing fact that Arabics have no words to describe sexual diseases. So when somebody comes down with an STD, they have no idea how to explain it, since they’ve never been taught it before, and the language hasn’t adapted itself to keep pace. Not to mention they feel that “It can’t happen to me”, since only Jews and Gays get God’s disease.

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mygif

DeBT, I’d like to thank you for repeatedly proving my earlier point with your multiple postings.

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mygif

Two short points:

1) It’s irrelevant what word is used to refer to a thing. If the thing is viewed to be bad, that word becomes an insult. If the thing is viewed to be good, the word becomes praise. Replacing the word does nothing.

2) Muslims are not a race.

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mygif

@Skemono… you’ve just pointed out a great example of why separation of church and state is good, something I already said. You’re also comparing the actions and laws of an ancient culture with the current laws of Islamic countries. Apples and chainsaws, mate.

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mygif
Mister Alex said on August 31st, 2010 at 3:47 pm

You know, I haven’t heard anybody complain about those huge Roman Catholic churches built DIRECTLY ON the sites of numerous cases of child sexual abuse. Talk about insensitive.

I guess it’s not really the same thing, though, since in this example the institution actually did participate in the crime, unlike with Park51.

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mygif

DeBT, please describe the differences between Wahabism and Sufism. You are aware that they are not the same thing, yes?

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mygif

Prodigal said: …please describe the differences between Wahabism and Sufism.

I’m sorry, I’m not that interested in religion to devote heavy minutae research into subsets of Islam. I had to look these terms up to understand what you were talking about. You’ll have to ask someone else.

The trick will be to find someone judgemental and unbiased enough who won’t just heap endless praise about one while spouting scorn for the other. I’ve noticed that whenever someone defends Islam, they almost never denounce those who use Islam for violent means.

As much as Muslims claim that Islam brings them together, they have a sorry history of neglect across borders because of tribal conflicts. Just look at how little support Pakistan got from neighboring nations when it was flooded. Muslim nations are usually the LAST ones to help each other in times of a crisis. They won’t even take in Palestienian refugees except as cheap labour, much like Mexican immigrants.

Your question sounds more like a diversion to distract from the issue at hand. Could you clarify your intent?

I’m also a little disappointed that the amount of debating here has slowed to a trickle. I had plenty of other rebuttals that I still hadn’t used yet.

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