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mygif

So in contrast to Roger, Betty *doesn’t* deliberately hurt people? So, she’s only unintentionally spited Sally, Glenn, Don, Sarah Beth (her friend at the stables?), CARLA.

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Savage Wombat said on December 7th, 2010 at 10:58 am

Clearly you have issues with girls named Betty.

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hawkorhandsaw said on December 7th, 2010 at 11:06 am

Borderline abusive to Sally? I think it’s pretty clear, even before she hit her, that she’s definitively abusive.

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mygif

Heartily agree. Over at avclub.com, they compared her to Livia Soprano, and I think that’s apt. Season 1 Betty, sure, maybe she’s at best CN, and maybe a lot of this really is Don’s fault, but last year was when she started really going off the rails, alignment-wise.

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mygif

My only criticism of the chart was that Glen and comedian Jimmy Barrett (and probably Duck Phillips too) all strike me as better choices for “Chaotic Neutral” than schlubby Harry Crane.

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mygif

Honestly? That BAN quote makes it sound like someone out there thinks Chaotic Evil = Neutral Evil + Way More Evilness.

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mygif

Not only do you get slapped with the “sexist” brush, they don’t even bother to give you credit for it. Nice.

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mygif

I am sorry, but isn’t it sexist to describe the behavior of one gender differently than behavior of the other?

Reverse the genders of Don and Betty. Give them the same behaviors. A woman with a murky, shameful past that is trying to be better and often failing. A man from an affluent family that enjoys punishing everyone for their weaknesses and abuses his children.

I doubt that anyone would have the slightest doubt that the male version of Betts would be considered evil?

The only reason people call Betty Draper “misunderstood” is that she is pretty, blonde woman with understandable motives.

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mygif

Yeah, maybe they didn’t watch the fourth season, or even the third…

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Greg Morrow said on December 7th, 2010 at 1:52 pm

What struck me about the BadAssNerd post was the way MGK, who only created the chart, was reduced to “someone”, not even meriting a link. That’s just f.–ng rude

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Cookie McCool said on December 7th, 2010 at 5:51 pm

Sounds like maybe those Mad Men fans don’t actually overlap with D&D fans at all.

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EndOfTheWorld said on December 7th, 2010 at 7:19 pm

What the BAN and a lot of the Betty defenders forget is something that’s actually pretty simple.

You can be a victim AND a bad person in this life. (It’s been a pretty common thing in Spiderman comics for the last fifty years)

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R.A. Bartlett said on December 7th, 2010 at 9:36 pm

I’ll be honest; Devin Faraci vs Christopher Bird was the longtime battle I’ve always wanted…nay DESERVED to see.

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mygif

Said it before, will say it again: alignment is a silly concept. Imposing it on rounded characters is briefly amusing for D&D nerds, but as a serious criticism it can never work.

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malakim2099 said on December 7th, 2010 at 10:57 pm

Well, I overlap with D&D and Mad Men, and I thought the chart was great. :)

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mygif

Alignment charts are for laffs, yes, but they do offer a nice little glimpse of insight sometimes. Good ones give you that “That’s so true!” feeling, except sometimes with an added ” . . . neutral!”

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mygif

You’ve roused my curiosity, Agog. What would be objectionable about labeling Robin Hood chaotic good?

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mygif

Because I feel the distinction of alignment too narrow, Q. Chaotic Good would be perfect for a 2-D, ‘Errol Flynn’ type Robin, which is fine. But a more rounded character can not be defined by a single paragraph from the Player’s Guide. Could not our Robin be Neutral Good, or even Lawful (to the rule of King Richard), as often as Chaotic? Students of ethics would argue that he’s definitely evil from the Sheriff’s viewpoint! I feel alignment was a part of RPG development, which has since been rendered obsolete. Fully realised, with poor or average players/DMs, you bascially only had 9 different characters.

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mygif

Agog: I’ve found this exercise insightful because it (1) reveals how other fans view these characters and (2) offers a reference point of discussion. By giving, say, Betty or Don a a single, defined nature, it actually feels easier to look at them beyond that definition, because all the arguments have an instant context. Works for me.

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mygif

I can’t believe nobody has linked to the Sadie Doyle article yet. Here it is:

http://tigerbeatdown.com/2010/10/18/no-ones-ever-on-your-side-betty-draper-francis-still-needs-your-love/

It’s good.

Doug M.

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mygif

@Doug: Good link, thanks. I found the essay very interesting and nuanced, although some of the comments sadly not as much.

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mygif

Actually, I take issue with the characterisation of Pete as a bastard, and or lawful. He’s not especially lawful, and since season 1, he’s left almost all of his bastardliness behind. I rather think he’s in the middle with Don.

Also, Harry crane isn’t especially chaotic – he’s more just vaguely unexplored and not particularly likeable.

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mygif

Yeah, that Doyle article is quite good, thanks for posting.

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mygif

“but as a serious criticism it can never work.”

And serious criticism is exactly what this is being sold as. Riiiigghht.

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mygif

Tell that to all those inspired to debate, Ed. You know how seriously nerds attend to such things.

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Danbu-Sama said on December 9th, 2010 at 8:32 pm

Nah, Betty still not actually more of a monster than Don, who continues to be a scummy, emotionally manipulative asshole basically always, and didn’t come up with a single good idea in S4 that Peggy didn’t come up with for him.

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Danbu-Sama said on December 9th, 2010 at 10:27 pm

Also Jegus the number of people who say “Ugh Betty wanting to talk to a CHILD psychologist like she’s some kind of CHILD” as if they’ve completely forgotten that she sought out formal, professional adult psychiatric help and the scummy douche reported everything she was saying back to her scummy douche husband.

Tagging Betty as evil may not be sexist; tagging Betty as evil but not Don because he’s charming and endearing and sympathetic and professionally successful absolutely is.

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Danbu-Sama said on December 9th, 2010 at 10:28 pm

as if they’ve completely forgotten that she sought out formal, professional adult psychiatric help and the scummy douche reported everything she was saying back to her scummy douche husband.

Or worse, the people who acknowledge this by way of trying to pretend that this too is somehow Betty’s fault.

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mygif

Who does Roger deliberately hurt? He’s certainly untrustworthy and vain and selfish. But mean? I would agree that he perhaps doesn’t care if he hurts somebody in the process of getting what he wants; but I don’t see him setting out only to hurt someone. Don is more vengeful and mean than Roger.

Is Don True Neutral, or Neutral Evil?

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mygif

[i]The show’s implied that she’s the product of an abusive, loveless upbringing.[/i]

Isn’t this pretty much the origin of the Red Skull as well?

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clodia_risa said on December 18th, 2010 at 4:45 pm

The issue here isn’t if she’s evil or not, but whether she is likeable or not. There are a lot of right bastards on the show, and every single character has a moment of two where they are clearly in the wrong. However, most of the characters end up being likeable around 50% of the time. Betty, however, gets raked over the coals for being unlikeable just because her brand of bastard is found to be unrelateable by a lot of the viewers. She’s definitely evil. I still root for her to be happy. Same as I do Pete and Roger. I think most people are just confusing the two.

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