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Cookie McCool said on June 14th, 2011 at 11:56 am

You’re just making me furious that I don’t have HBO.

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Hmmmm…I’d flip Littlefinger and Cersei, myself, but otherwise, amazing.

Kind of ironic that the king is chaotic neutral. That’s about the worst alignment for a king.

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Littlfinger doesn’t feel right at lawful evil. He’s too much about thriving in chaos (much of which he creates or fosters) so I’d slot him as chaotic neutral–chaotic evil seems more evil than he actually is. He’ll do “evil” things if they benefit him, but he’s just as likely to do “good” things if he sees a profit in them.

I’d probably slot Tyrion with Dany as well, at least as written in the books. True neutral is a little too detached for him. I can’t really think of a character in GOT that would play as true neutral; perhaps Varys, since he isn’t above breaking the law if it suits him. Maybe Tywin Lannister?

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Varys wouldn’t be neutral because he wants peace. He’s willing to do bad things in order for stability. Nobody can really -afford- to be neutral because of how polarized so many people are. Everybody kind of has an angle for themselves at the expense of others.

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Could Lyssa Arryn or maybe the gents at the Wall be true neutral?

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I’d put Ser Gregor Clegane as chaotic evil. He’s really the best example of it in the books (Save for Ramsay Bolton). Joffrey kind of wavers in and out of chaotic and neutral evil

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Haven’t watched the series, have read the books, and I think this is dead right.

Littlefinger does an excellent job of working within the law to twist it to his own designs. Cersei is more than fine with telling the law that she’s the queen and a Lannister and it can kindly fuck off.

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Most of my objections (Rotate Dany/Ned/Littlefinger one spot counterclockwise, slide Tyrion up into Neutral Good, find some way for Cersei and Joffrey to share the Chaotic Evil spot) come from the books, not the TV show. As the TV show goes, that’s a pretty good breakdown.

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Cookie McCool said on June 14th, 2011 at 2:46 pm

Lysa Arryn’s too dumb to be true neutral. Doing nothing because you’re not smart enough to think of something to do isn’t the same thing as choosing to do nothing.

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I would love to see one of these for the current slate of the contenders for the GOP nomination… Even if you did have to leave the top left square blank.

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And the big debate, of course, would be where Jaime goes. I’d argue for Chaotic Neutral, with a side order of Dickish.

… Any chance we’ll see another of these towards the end of season two?

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And the big debate, of course, would be where Jaime goes. I’d argue for Chaotic Neutral, with a side order of Dickish.

I’d actually stick Jaime firmly in True Neutral, on the grounds of really *having* no opinions and no convictions of his own. But that, again, is a book-sourced opinion, not based solely on the TV show.

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Tywin would be a better fit for Lawful Evil.
Littlefinger’s pretty much the poster boy for Neutral Evil
Can’t see how he qualifies as ‘Lawful’ when honour mean nothing to him, he has no ideology or sense of loyalty and everything he does is motivated by personal gain. Nothing really matters to him other than Cat and increasing his own power and influence- not even the stability of the country.

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DistantFred said on June 14th, 2011 at 6:36 pm

Zach: As much as Gregor is, yes, thoroughly Chaotic Evil, he appeared in one episode this season. He’ll probably end up in the CE slot for a later season, when he’s more prominent.

Similarly, for next season, Arya ought to start slipping into Chaotic Neutral.

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I will be extremely surprised if any GoT chart has someone in the LG position that manages to live past the end of the book its respective season is based on.

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@Prodigal:

I’d say Jon Snow is pretty LG…

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VersasoVantare said on June 14th, 2011 at 7:06 pm

I saw the top left entry first, and for a wonderful fleeting moment, though this’d be an alignment chart made up entirely of Seab Bean characters.

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ladypeyton said on June 14th, 2011 at 11:16 pm

Needz moar John Snow! Otherwise, perfect chart!

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So, who else had a temptation to go through this and just put big red X’s?

And I agree with Jaime as true neutral. Later in the series you get a look inside his head, and it is just not a good place to be.

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I confess, I cannot readily grasp a worldview in which Tyrion Lannister could be considered good in any sense. He is less evil than the rest of his horrible family, but that barely gets him into neutral territory.

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GoatToucher said on June 15th, 2011 at 1:38 am

Jamie is is a well-played Chaotic Neutral, in my book. He does have a conscience, of sorts, but will ignore it or act on it based on what he feels are the right reasons(right for him/the Lannisters/his siblings), and will actively do evil if it suits his purposes.

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equinox216 said on June 15th, 2011 at 1:57 am

LurkerWithout:
I think the entire ‘turncoat to the wildings’ thing, even under direct order, kills Jon Snow’s LG status. I’d go with NG. LG’s an easy state to die from or fall out of.

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I’m not sure about Dany being NG, either. Maybe neutral good but on a career path towards becoming lawful evil…

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Mark Question said on June 15th, 2011 at 7:08 am

I’ve only seen the show so far, but this seems pretty much spot on from my perspective.

Oh and slightly OT, but you all seem like most learned folk and I’m not sure who else to ask:
It appears that next week will be this season’s finale and since I’m hooked and don’t really want to wait, could I dive in straight into A Clash Of Kings without missing anything important? How well does the pacing match up between the two media?

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Jon Snow is *definitely* LG. His time with the wildlings only reinforces how much he is.

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@Mark: Try to read the first book, the additional informations revealed there are necessary for a good many things which happen later on. Also, the book is excellently written and well worth the additional invested time.

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That Guy said on June 15th, 2011 at 8:37 am

Brad Hanon – Tyrion is good, if sarcastic, nasty, mean spirited at times, jaded, and bitter. But he helps those around him, when there is no gain. He refuses to be forced into actions he does not approve of. He does not lie if it can be avoided. He’s good, he’s just not particularly pleasant.

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VersasoVantare said “I saw the top left entry first, and for a wonderful fleeting moment, though this’d be an alignment chart made up entirely of Sean Bean characters.”

*THIS* is something I’d love to see. Although here’s a question for you: where do you put Boromir? Do you count his Ring-induced actions against him? Or is he redeemed by his sacrifice?

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I could see Jon as LG in any of the first three books, but as of the point in the fourth book I’ve gotten to, he’s pushed himself pretty far into NG or LN.

@That Guy: Tyrion is also ready, willing, and able to kill the hell out of people because they did something he didn’t like. TN is the perfect place for him.

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@Prodigal: Eh? Jon Snow isn’t in the fourth book! I can’t remember anything pushing him out of LG there…

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Although here’s a question for you: where do you put Boromir? Do you count his Ring-induced actions against him? Or is he redeemed by his sacrifice?

Personally, particularly in the movie version, I don’t count his Ring-induced actions against him. It’s a complex issue, I think, and it’s true that all the “best” people manage to resist the temptation of the Ring even when it’s freely offered to them. On the other hand, that amounts to like 6 or 7 people in the entire world who are that good (or wise); whereas, Galadriel’s statement on the matter was that given long enough (and, I suppose, the closer the Ring got to sensing its imminent peril), all members of the Fellowship (minus Gandalf, who was dead at the time) would have been corrupted by it.

So you could say that Boromir was the weakest of the Fellowship. Or you could just say that he was sufficiently weak and that the Ring initially “thought” he was the best target for its purpose. On the other hand, his sacrifice works in his favor, as does, perhaps, his immediate realization that what he’d done was wrong.

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That Guy said on June 15th, 2011 at 1:20 pm

@Prodigal That doesn’t mean Tyrion’s not good. Just not forgiving. One strike rule, so to speak.

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@Jonny K: Ok, I’ll just assume that anybody that made it this far into the thread has also read at least as far into the fourth book as I’ve managed to get, but apologise to anybody who hasn’t for the spoiler:

After Jon is elected Lord Commander of the Watch, he orders Gilly to leave her baby behind and take Mance Rayder’s baby with her, so that Gilly’s baby will be burned alive instead of Mance’s. While I accept that his reason (preventing Stannis from gaining power by murdering an infant with royal blood) was a good one, he still made a mother abandon her baby to be burned alive.

I can’t accept that as a LG action.

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Mark Question said on June 15th, 2011 at 3:04 pm

@Magnus: I’m, considering it, though I’m really curious to know What Happens Next and I’m not sure I’ll have the time for two 800+ pages fantasy epics due to pesky real life issues.

Besides, all the scenes that have been added specificially for TV has been stuff that I explicitely liked so far, not sure if that wouldn’t sour my reading experience a little bit.

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After Jon is elected Lord Commander of the Watch, he orders Gilly to leave her baby behind and take Mance Rayder’s baby with her, so that Gilly’s baby will be burned alive instead of Mance’s. While I accept that his reason (preventing Stannis from gaining power by murdering an infant with royal blood) was a good one, he still made a mother abandon her baby to be burned alive.
I can’t accept that as a LG action.

I will bet anybody who cares to take me up on it a million billion dollars that this scene either shows up or is referenced in the next book:

STANNIS: Grr grr I am grim and stony and I don’t want to burn a baby alive but I need the king-baby power in order to get the dragons to beat the snow zombies, so Lord Commander, fetch me that king-baby.
JON SNOW: Oh, you mean the king-baby I secretly switched with this peasant-baby last week? Sorry, that king-baby is not here. In fact I have no idea where the hell it is. Good luck finding it. You only have to search the entire world.
STANNIS: Oh Jon Snow I am mad at you! But I cannot take action against you because I need the Night’s Watch in order to fight the snow zombies and become King, so I will just let this whole thing slide. Also I will not burn the peasant-baby, because really, what’s the point?
JON SNOW: Victory! And now I will go angst in my tower for a bit.

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Exactly. Stannis doesn’t burn babies just for the hell of it. He burns babies for the good of the realm.

Oh, and since we’re now playing spoilers, Davos is a Lawful* Good character who survived at least one book.

* Yes, he was a criminal. Then he became a knight, accepted the rule of law as given to him by Stannis, and is driven by the twin threads of duty to his king and the dictates of his conscious. Whatever his past, the man in the present is as Lawful as they come.

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The sad thing about Stannis being bamboozled out of a baby burning is that it’s the exact same thing Davos pulled on him in book 3.

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Jon Snow only made himself a target by getting rid of Aemon and the wild prince. I mean, even with absolutely no one but Howland Reed knowing that he’s a Targaryan, he’s still a Stark, and they were kings for like 7000 years.

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@Prodigal: As MGK said, he’s done that to *prevent* any baby from being burned. Being LG doesn’t mean not having to make any hard decisions.

@Mark: The added scenes for the TV series were mostly good, but reading the first novel will do several good things for you.

1.) Give you an appreciation of GRRM’s prose.
2.) Add additional layers of information, which will be very important for the future books.
3.) More great dialogue and internal thoughts for the important characters.

The only point where I can see it being bad is the characterization of some characters being a bit different. But that would be even more glaring if you’d read A Clash of Kings without having read AGoT before, so my recommendation stands to read the first book now and simply leave yourself some time before getting to ACoK.

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@SomeGuy: I bet you Varys knows. :p

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Mitchell Hundred said on June 16th, 2011 at 9:56 am

Assuming that Jon is a Targaryen, which has yet to be definitely revealed. Although there are apparently some hints to this issue in Book 5 (http://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-553-80147-7). Still, until it’s definitely confirmed, I can’t buy into the theory: too predictable a move for this series.

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Socraticsilence said on June 16th, 2011 at 12:56 pm

Someguy-
But don’t you see how awesome that will make the reveal seen when he doesn’t burn at the stake? I mean c’mon you gotta leave Martin one awesome setpiece.

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Socraticsilence said on June 16th, 2011 at 12:58 pm

Mitchell while its predictable- I’d say that Jon and Danyrs have essentially been the two conventionally plotted “heroic arc” characters- hence my belief that Martin is going to have them fight to the death at some point.

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Mitchell Hundred said on June 16th, 2011 at 1:36 pm

Possibly. Or die in some other way before fulfilling their so-called destinies. I guess my main point is that in this series, things don’t happen the way they’re supposed to: things just happen.

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@Mitchell: Given that this had to be ferreted out by looking very carefully at the text of the books, I don’t know if Jon being the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar can be called “predictable”. GRRM has kept it pretty much to small hints and I myself had to read it on a messageboard to even see it.

I just hope he doesn’t change it now because some people figured it out. :-/

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Now that I have finished book 4, I am more convinced of my original theory about whoever is set in the LG place on the chart for each season.

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Prodigal- Hey, hey, hey now.

That character ends the book in a cliffhanger. We don’t know whether or not they actually die.

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True, but I’m not hopeful of any more proof of theirbeing alive being given in Book 5 than there was of Theon Greyjoy in Book 4.

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You should wait until a few more seasons of this show airs to make a chart like this – the best represenatative of some of the alignments in the book series haven’t shown up in the TV show yet (e.g. Stannis is a much better Lawful Neutral than Varys, and Brienne of Tarth is even more stoutly Lawful Good than Eddard).

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@MGK

Having read A Dance With Dragons, it’s of course obvious that we should have taken you up on that bet, no matter how much we’d’ve believed you at the time…

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@equinox216:

“I think the entire ‘turncoat to the wildings’ thing, even under direct order, kills Jon Snow’s LG status. I’d go with NG. LG’s an easy state to die from or fall out of.”

The fact that it was under direct order is what makes it lawful. I’d say Jon fits under LG.

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[...] I saw this post for the nine alignments of Game of Thrones, and it got me wondering, has anyone made a nine [...]

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Paul Wilson said on May 3rd, 2012 at 12:19 pm

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