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mygif

Weak.

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JCHandsom said on June 10th, 2013 at 12:34 am

Not enough victim-blaming, but pretty good nonetheless.

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Christian Williams said on June 10th, 2013 at 12:59 am

You mis-spelled: ‘If they didn’t expect me to shit myself and fling my feces at them, they shouldn’t be wearing white cloth, which reminds me of what I wipe my ass with.’

But otherwise, that’s a pretty good MRA. Though you missed the fake geek girl part.

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mygif

Glad all of us “Male Convention Goers” fit in the same box. Must be convenient for you that we’re all such fucking horrible people.How lucky we all are that the great John Seavey can stand above all of us, and judge all of us, so we can learn to be better men,like him.

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@mystman: Sit. Sit above you. Judges sit.

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Moist Von Weedon said on June 10th, 2013 at 5:48 am

The Incontinent Man-Children of America Association will not take this sitting down!

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mystman: Thank you for helping me understand the lyric “you probably think this song is about you, don’t you.”

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@LurkerWithout: Unless it’s like Judge Dredd, then the judge in fact stands.

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@Chris Lowrance- if women can feel insulted for other women and other people in general then so can men.

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Sean D. Martin said on June 10th, 2013 at 1:25 pm

Yes, all men are feces flinging pigs and when women who go to conventions dressed as Starfire , Power Girl or in a Slave Leia outfit get looked at by men well, it’s just men being pigs because the women certainly didn’t dress that way to get leered at.

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Jason: Sure. But mystman wasn’t feeling insulted for other men. He assumed John was talking about men like him, specifically, and was offended on his own behalf. Sean went on to do the same. They immediately made the assumption John was making a joke at their expense, and that is… suggestive.

But tell me, who is this “other man” us blokes should feel insulted for? Guys like Sean who don’t seem to realize a woman might dress like Powergirl because she happens to like Powergirl? That she might like feeling sexy and still not like having guys constantly go out of their way to comment on it?

I’ll put “shed a tear for guys who can’t stop making women uncomfortable in public” on my to-do list.

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mygif

I think dressing sexy and not expecting any comments makes no sense. Especially considering no one commenting might just mean you actually look like shit. If guys do any touching that’s obviously something with no excuse, if guys stick around even after she tries to brush him off to far, but blowing off one guy does not mean that every guy in the vicinity knows she’s not interested.

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dogheart said on June 10th, 2013 at 4:45 pm

Oh, the stories I could tell about being a quasi-attractive female convention-goer at age seventeen…

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Yvonmukluk said on June 10th, 2013 at 5:23 pm

Sean D. Martin: Thank you for completely missing the point of this. That or outing yourself as the exact type of person this is aimed at.

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To the guys who feel that women in sexy costumes are asking for sexual attention:

1) Sometimes, women dress in sexy costumes because they like the sexy character on which the costume is based. If I were to dress as Uhura, it would be for her awesomeness, awesome fashion sense aside.

2) Women can want to look hot without wanting hotness bound and shackled to sex. Saying that it’s a binary situation, where all sexiness=sexual advertisement, is an insult to thinking beings. I enjoy a good-looking, well-built guy in a Thor costume without losing my ability to remember that he possesses something above the neck that is probably more important in assessing him as a partner.

TL;DR – Nuance is good.

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mygif

but there are no real mind readers so no man would know you aren’t interested until you tell them. And they have to approach you to find that out.

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Hey, approaching a woman is fine – if you approach her the same way you’d approach a woman in very modest clothing. No real mind readers among men either – you don’t know why she’s wearing that outfit, so be polite and reserved in approach until you have enough info to have reason to think she’s there for the sex. (I suspect that the number of women interested in hooking up with strangers for a one-night stand… is probably not that high.)

Talk politely, listen carefully – don’t assume.

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Sean D. Martin said on June 10th, 2013 at 6:55 pm

@Chris: Guys like Sean who don’t seem to realize a woman might dress like Powergirl because she happens to like Powergirl? That she might like feeling sexy and still not like having guys constantly go out of their way to comment on it?

“It’s really rude of you to notice how sexy I’m being when I walk around in this revealing outfit because I’m feeling sexy.”

Um, no.

I’m with Jason: Dressing sexy and not expecting any one to notice makes no sense. I’ll go a bit further and say dressing sexy and getting offended when someone does notice is ridiculous.

Yes, there is a line an observer should not cross. No matter how dressed, one should be treated with respect. But certain outfits will get certain responses and, to an extent, are designed to get those responses. As long as they stay on the OK side of that line, complaining because someone reacts as you know your outfit would prompt them to is disingenuous at best.

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Sean D. Martin said on June 10th, 2013 at 6:56 pm

@Yvonmukluk: Sean D. Martin: Thank you for completely missing the point of this. That or outing yourself as the exact type of person this is aimed at.

Oh, Yvonmukluk. Your bias is showing. And you have no idea how off base you are.

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Sean D. Martin said on June 10th, 2013 at 6:57 pm

@Kirala: I enjoy a good-looking, well-built guy in a Thor costume without losing my ability to remember that he possesses something above the neck that is probably more important in assessing him as a partner.

So why assume someone can’t enjoy a good-looking, well-built gal in a Starfire costume without losing their ability to remember that she possesses something above the neck?

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J Bailey said on June 10th, 2013 at 7:27 pm

So….all this boil down to this statement.

BASIC HUMAN FUCKING DECENCY!

Why is that simple thing disappearing at an alarming rate each and every day?

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waste land said on June 10th, 2013 at 7:27 pm

@Sean D. Martin:

Are you being purposefully ignorant of the fact that you can notice and appreciate good-looking people without making them uncomfortable, or is this more of an “I don’t know how not to make people uncomfortable in general” deal?

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To Sean & Jason: So what, exactly do you think a female fan of superhero comics should do if she wants to let her geek flag fly by cosplaying as her favorite character at a con? Considering that pretty much *all of them* have skimpy-ass costumes? I mean, Power Girl and Black Canary are both popular among feminists for their kick-ass attitudes, despite the boob window and stripper fishnets. Would you expect someone in one of those costumes to be trolling for cat-calls…or to be in-character enough to punch out anyone who commented on their assets?

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DistantFred said on June 10th, 2013 at 8:25 pm

Acechan: Powergirl and Black Canary both have costume options that eliminate the boob window and fishnet elements, and more obscure costumes are a sign of deeper fandom.

Alternatively, anyone capable of tailoring their own costume is likely skilled enough to develop a derivative costume for a character that is more suited to modesty, and as far as I can tell, would be lauded by their costuming peers for their creativity, as numerous Steampunk X or whathaveyou costumes have received positive feedback in the past.

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mygif

say not interested to any guys who approach them and realize that not every guy see’s her reject previous guys. I mean if you see a group that one guy comes up and then after leaving her alone another of his buddies comes up like some sort of pissing contest or something “you couldn’t score, watch me” or something yeah, get mad.

But said woman is dealing with individual men, not the male gender and should react like that.

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mygif

Remember ladies, its up to YOU to prevent dudes from being creepy on you…

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duquesne_pdx said on June 10th, 2013 at 9:00 pm

@DistantFred: “Powergirl and Black Canary both have costume options that eliminate the boob window and fishnet elements, and more obscure costumes are a sign of deeper fandom.

…and we have a winner in the first to the “girl cosplayers can’t be/aren’t real fans” contest, with bonus points for victim blaming!

Let’s be very clear here: just because she’s dressing in a way that you consider to be sexy doesn’t mean she wants or needs you or anyone else to comment on that fact. It’s not an invitation. You can look all you want. If you talk to her and make her uncomfortable, then it’s YOUR problem, not her problem. And saying things that makes strangers uncomfortable definitely puts you in the ‘creep’ category.

/rant

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duquesne_pdx said on June 10th, 2013 at 9:01 pm

@lurkerwithout: Dammit! You beat me to it!

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mygif

You do realize that this whole “the guy didn’t know she was turning down advances” thing just translates to “It’s totally okay for a woman who might well be at a con just to be nerdy to have to spend all damn day fending off pick-up attempts” right? That’s the thing about sexism; it’s not always about guys making conscious decisions about being sexist. It’s about an endemic system where this is okay because we, as heterosexual males, get to decide what the symbols mean. A woman showing her legs might just be proud of her legs (she should be, she probably worked hard for them) but because we are used to sexual imagery being targeted at us, we assume it’s an open invitation.

Even if 100% of guys at a con aren’t being creepy about it, which I frankly doubt would ever be the case but I digress, it’s still a problem. It still means that someone who probably just showed up for the con itself is going to spend all day being propositioned and, I would imagine, feeling scrutinized in a way that would straight up ruin the experience.

TL;DR: I’m sorry if you feel rejected by a sexy cosplayer, but I’d rather you feel rejected for a five minute span than she feel like a piece of meat all damn day.

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mygif

you’re judging a bunch of individual men as a group of males. That is what always upsets me about these sexism talks. The theoretical woman is just herself. One woman. But each theoretical man is lumped into men. Sometimes in life you have to repeat yourself. I know it my work I’ve had to explain to people what I’m doing and why I’m doing it more than once.

LurkerWithout- well isn’t it up to her to make it known that you’re being creepy? The internet pretty much shows there’s a lot of different opinions out there.

You know looking at this site I swear interaction between men and women should come to a halt. Guys who hope women will approach them because they’re decent to them are “nice guys” and are pure scum and men who approach women without explicit permission are creeps.

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mygif

But each individual man, acting without any malicious intent, perform actions that affect the individual woman. If you’re coming in from a position of privilege, you have a responsibility to take that into account.

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mygif

ah, privilege. The concept that if you’re a white male, though in some circumstances just white or just male, you’re getting some advantage that you may not be asking for or want and you probably don’t know if you are.

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Like it or not, it’s there. In some situations more than others, true, but it’s there. And in a situation where the majority of attendees are male, then you’re damn right you have privilege there as a male.

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**** that whole concept

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Christian Williams said on June 10th, 2013 at 10:55 pm

@jason:
ah, privilege. The concept that if you’re a white male, though in some circumstances just white or just male, you’re getting some advantage that you may not be asking for or want and you probably don’t know if you are.

Sorry but you’re being deliberately obtuse.

Your argument is that it’s okay to hit on women at a con who are wearing a sexy costume, until you have verifiable facts that they are:
1: Not interested in sexy time.
2: Not interested in sexy time with you.
3: At the con for some reason related to fandom, and not just because they are a receptacle for a dick.

It’s a horrible, horrible argument to make. Because it’s not up to the woman to prove that she doesn’t want to screw you, it’s up to you NOT TO ASSUME SHE DOES JUST BECAUSE SHE IS ATTRACTIVE.

You want to walk up to her, make eye contact, and say ‘Hey that’s a great Power Girl costume’, because you’re a fan of costumes or cosplay? That’s one thing.

You want to walk up to her, stare at her chest and say, ‘Hey, that’s a great Power Girl costume, but it would look better on the floor of my hotel room’? That’s not okay.

Similarly if you walk up to her, stare at her chest and say, ‘Why didn’t you wear the alternate Power Girl costume? Obviously since you just wore the costume that’s most well known, you’re a false geek girl, just here to lead us honest geeks astray by having sex with us. I will, for my brothers, throw my dick at this problem’? That’s not okay either, and you probably need therapy.

The fact that the con-goer is wearing a Power Girl costume, or whatever else, does not make you being a creep her problem, nor does it give every man carte blanche to hit on her.

I am always disappointed, as a man, to find myself explaining this shit.

Also regarding:

Guys who hope women will approach them because they’re decent to them are “nice guys” and are pure scum

Incorrect.

Guys who are nice to women, befriend them, and ingratiate themselves into their lives but whose sole intent is that eventually, by virtue of their friendship, it will be their right to fuck that woman? Those people are “nice guys” and are the scum of the earth.

Because those guys decide that the woman is out of their league if they were to approach her directly, they’re only choice is to resort to subterfuge in the hopes of getting to fuck her while she’s in a compromised emotional state. They get a little thrill every time she takes them deeper into their trust, and will use their trusted opinion to try to poison the women in questions relationships with other guys.

People who do that are chickenshit all the way down, and deserve every hint of derision they get on the internet.

You want to be nice to the girl you see on the metro every day in hopes that she’ll like you and invite you for coffee? Go for it…. you’d be better off just asking but hey, whatever. That is not the same thing, at all, as the “nice guy” concept.

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mygif

I’m not talking about any of those things. I’m taking about walking up to her and saying “You want to walk up to her, make eye contact, and say ‘Hey that’s a great Power Girl costume’, because you find her attractive and would be interested in finding out more about her, not because of cosplay or going any further into one of your disgusting pick up lines. You can be kind of shallow and still be completely civil and non-disgusting. That is a thing that exists. Having an interest in sex at some future point does not make you Glen Quagmire.

And I think you’re insanely wrong about the “nice guy” concept Those type guys are always accused off just wanting to have sex with the woman in question, never date or have a relationship and it both disgusts me and pisses me off and it treats a subset of women far lower than thinking a woman who dresses in a sexy costume can be approached does women.

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Christian Williams said on June 10th, 2013 at 11:37 pm

“You want to walk up to her, make eye contact, and say ‘Hey that’s a great Power Girl costume’, because you find her attractive and would be interested in finding out more about her, not because of cosplay or going any further into one of your disgusting pick up lines

And yet the point is: When her reply is ‘Thanks’ and she turns away… that’s when you should walk away. And that’s where the guy being discussed above doesn’t walk away, but instead persists.

And I think you’re insanely wrong about the “nice guy” concept

Nope. I’m really not wrong. Because the guys in the “nice guy” archetype are only interested in sleeping with the women they ingratiate themselves with.

You are conflating the “nice guy” archetype, with “guys who happen to be nice, and use their niceness as a means of attracting potential mates”. The two things are not the same… which I’m also pretty certain you know.

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Thomas Olney said on June 10th, 2013 at 11:43 pm

I just received inspiration for a screenplay entitled “Straw Man!: the Musical.” Hollywood, here I come.

Thanks, people on all sides of this issue who decided to make and comment on this post! One of you will be played by Steve Buscemi.

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JCHandsom said on June 11th, 2013 at 12:02 am

“One of you will be played by Steve Buscemi.”

Oh pick me! Please pick me!!

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FeepingCreature said on June 11th, 2013 at 5:34 am

Yes I feel addressed by this post. I feel addressed by this post because this post appears on a blog that I follow. I follow this blog because I enjoy most of its content. I used to enjoy all of its content.

Is this necessary? I don’t even go to conventions.

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mygif

well, I have been talking about a guy who does just that, walks away when a woman shows no interest. But some people here seem to think that’s unacceptable since it could happen to her multiple times a day.

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Kate the Short said on June 11th, 2013 at 8:38 am

People, it’s really not that difficult.

Assume that any woman at a con, be she in a Slave Leia outfit or Dust’s burqa or a miniskirt or a turtleneck, is there to attend the con. Assume that she is NOT interested in being chatted up, asked on dates, etc. unless she specifically brings up the topic. Assume that the kind of attention she wants is along the lines of “Wow, nice costume!” or a thumbs-up from afar, as opposed to “I like how the boob-window shows off your tits” or following her around making humping gestures.

Assume that any man at a con, be he in a Namor speedo outfit or full plate armor or a tight t-shirt or a suit and tie, is there to attend the con. Assume that he is NOT interested in being chatted up, asked on dates, etc. unless he specifically brings up the topic. Assume that the kind of attention he wants is along the lines of “Wow, nice costume!” or a thumbs-up from afar, as opposed to “I like how the loincloth shows off your dick” or following him around making humping gestures.

Assume that anyone in costume would like a small bit of positive attention, from afar, that indicates that the costume is a good costume. If you would like a photo, hold up your camera or phone from afar, and indicate that you would like a pic, and wait for the person to say “ok” or pose for you.

Phrases along the lines of “nice costume” or “great costume” or facial expressions like smiles are usually okay.

Assume that phrases that comment on the person’s physical characteristics are NOT okay.

Please note that this applies no matter what gender or sexual orientation you are, and no matter what gender or sexual orientation the person in costume is. Lots of guys don’t like getting hit on by guys or girls when they are at a con. Lots of woman don’t like getting hit on by chicks or dudes when they are at a con.

Please note that this behavior also applies when you are in other convention settings, such as a librarian’s convention or a software convention, and to individuals who are not in costume. [aka don’t go up to a guy and say “nice jeans, I like how they show off your ass.”]

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Kate the Short said on June 11th, 2013 at 8:45 am

Jason– have you ever been in a situation where you are trying to enjoy a book or a movie, or maybe you’re trying to write an email at work and someone KEEPS TALKING? And as soon as the person shuts up, and you think that finally they’ve shut up, and you can relax a little bit and get back to what you are doing, they start back up? And then when they cut it out, someone else comes and bothers you?

It’s kind of like that.

It’s basic etiquette. There are times and places and ways that it’s okay to approach someone, and times and places and ways that it isn’t.

If Wil Wheaton is posing for photos, and you’re in line, then yes you should expect that you can approach him and say hello. If he’s walking down the aisle and he’s talking to someone, then no you should not expect that he’s going to stop and talk to you.

If you aren’t sure if someone is approachable, STOP, look, and listen. Are they posing for others? Are they on the move or are they stopped? Do they look like they’re just coming from or going to the bathroom? Think about it before approaching the person.

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mygif

@Kate the Short

If everyone assumes that it’s not OK to bring up the topic of dating unless the other party does so first, nobody’s going to bring it up at all. Not sure if that’s your intent or not; I can’t help but think that this attitude will result in a few missed connections that could have been something beautiful.

I’m not a con goer myself, but personally I can’t see there being an inherent problem in seeing someone at a con you’re at (already indicating a potential shared interest), especially someone who’s cosplaying as a character that you’re a fan of or from a particular series you like (another potential thing you have in common) and chatting to them about it – “That’s a great Power Girl costume, I’m really loving the way her current series is going, [writer/artist] is doing some great work…” etc (assuming that you do actually hold those opinions – obviously lying to make yourself appear more compatible is not on). Possibly you enter into that in the hope you discover more common ground and start a relationship and again I don’t see a problem with that as long as you don’t feel entitled to get one and you aren’t a douche about it (and dropping the conversation as soon as you find out they’re not interested in you as a partner is an example of being a douche).

None of that should be specific to conventions or cosplayers though, and I don’t think we really need specific rules for these situations; it’s just a case of more people actually following the general requirements to not be terrible human beings, which I hear anecdotally is an issue that affects a larger minority of con goers than it does the general public.

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mygif

I agree with everything Vayne said

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Sean D. Martin said on June 11th, 2013 at 1:29 pm

@acechan: So what, exactly do you think a female fan of superhero comics should do if she wants to let her geek flag fly by cosplaying as her favorite character at a con? Considering that pretty much *all of them* have skimpy-ass costumes? I mean, Power Girl and Black Canary are both popular among feminists for their kick-ass attitudes, despite the boob window and stripper fishnets.

@DistantFred: Alternatively, anyone capable of tailoring their own costume is likely skilled enough to develop a derivative costume for a character that is more suited to modesty, and as far as I can tell, would be lauded by their costuming peers for their creativity

Exactly. Thank you, DistantFred.

I really don’t see the problem here. If a woman wants to walk around in a revealing or sexy attire, fine. But she does so *knowing* (and possibly wanting) the reaction it’s going to get. This does *NOT* mean by any means that “she’s asking for it” or shouldn’t be treated with respect and as a person.

But if you’re going to walk around in a costume with a prominent boob window, folks are going to notice your boobs. To complain about this is ridiculous. And if you want to enjoy your cosplay of your favorite character, but don’t want to get the reactions that that character’s usual costume will get, then fill in the boob window. Or design the costume to have a flesh colored cloth across the otherwise bare midriff.

Does a woman dressing in a sexy manner give a guy license to hit on her, disrespect her or assume she’s on the prowl for a one night stand? Of course not. Absolutely not. But suggesting that her provacative attire should go completely unnoticed and not provoke any response is ridiculous.

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mygif

There’s a big fucking difference between noticing someone’s sexy outfit and staring at them and making them feel uncomfortable, and if you can’t do the former without it turning into the latter, that’s on YOU, not them.

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Kate the Short said on June 11th, 2013 at 7:46 pm

Vayne — that’s my point. There’s nothing wrong with approaching someone who you have an interest in *as a person* to get to know them. But there is a right way to go about it. Usually people who are interested in dating have actually gotten to know each other first.

The guys that Seavey was originally taking about are those who approach someone as a sex object. They think that just because someone is in a sexy costume, they want sexual attention. Or that ANY time is an okay time to approach someone in a Power Girl costume, since she’s obviously asking for that kind of attention. And that is not the case.

IF you want to approach someone at a con, there’s a proper time and place for it. It’s called reading body language. Again, it doesn’t matter what they’re wearing.

Besides– do you really go to a con to try to hook up? People seem to assume that the people in sexy costumes must be single and looking to hook up or date or something like that. Doesn’t anyone think that maybe someone already has a significant other?

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mygif

1. Expecting any heterosexual male to completely discount the fact that an attractive woman is attractive is like expecting any human being to be truly “color blind.”

I’m not saying that ogling a woman’s cleavage isn’t boorish, I’m saying that a man shouldn’t feel like a horrid chauvinist for thinking “Huh, she’s got some nice legs.”

2. That said, such compliments do not necessarily need to be paid. Compliment the costume, maybe strike up a conversation, or (like I do) walk by and go on to the next thing.

3. Nerds – From personal experience: if you’re going to try to strike up a conversation, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD just be organic. Don’t force things, don’t try “lines,” and don’t take a rejection as some sort of horrid act.

Seriously. Don’t.

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mygif

Also, does this happen often at cons?

I may not have noticed, as I tend to spend cons looking for merch deals, but is this common?

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Candlejack said on June 13th, 2013 at 12:28 pm

I don’t go to cons, but I can’t really think of a reason why trapdoor spiders would be any less common there than anywhere else.

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mygif

Women entering a male dominated space should naturally be catered to at the expense of the men in question, because women are flawless, divine angels above reproach, and all men are stupid, savage animals that rely on women to civilize them.

I can do it too!

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