From comments yesterday:
Actually, I wouldn’t mind hearing your full thoughts on the issue of the Legion and why Johns shouldn’t be writing it. I mean, just a bit of a more detailed answer.
and
And while you’re being forced to give thoughts, what’s the best possible outcome for Legion of Three Worlds short of having three ongoing Legion books?
Okay. I don’t have anything against Geoff Johns writing the Legion per se. He wouldn’t be my first choice or even my second or third, but he’s not actively bad. (This is not to say he has not written his share of dogshit, but who hasn’t? And before you answer, Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman have both written horrendously bad comics. Admittedly, both were to do with Spawn, but even so.)
My gripe is entirely with the Geoff Johns “old is the new new” Legion, which is the answer to the prayers of people whose prayers, generally speaking, should not be answered. This is not to say that I did not enjoy the “Superman and the Legion of Super-Heroes” arc in Action Comics featuring said Legion. I thought it was a lot of fun, and an enjoyable flashback to the way things used to be.
But that’s now how things are now. Revamping the Legion “back” to a pseudo-Levitzian status quo isn’t going to do anything except quell some of the bitching of the (rapidly aging and shrinking) Legion fanbase, the ones who in Newsrama comments steadfastly maintain that it was all the rebooting that drove away fans. (Untrue. What killed the book more than anything was DC’s moving the title exclusively to the direct market in the mid-80s, along with New Teen Titans and a bunch of other successful titles that, in retrospect, they must have felt were making too much money.) “If only DC had kept the Legion like we liked it twenty-five years ago, it would be as big as the X-Men,” these people say. But they’re wrong.
And catering to them is the wrong move. DC has hellaciously strong properties, and their use of these properties in comics is primarily dictated by – again – a shrinking, aging fanbase who are going to be bitter no matter what you give them. If DC goes ahead and makes the Johns Legion the core Legion, just wait – they’ll start having internet slapfights over when and how this “original” Legion diverges from the previous Legion stories. The fact that Karate Kid was alive and Polar Boy a member simultaneously – which never happened in the original Levitz run (KK died in LSH v3 #4, Polar Boy joined in #14) should cause a bitterly argued fifty-post thread on some messageboard. And whoever doesn’t get their belief confirmed by the comics will complain. And whoever does will find something else to bitch about.
What irks me particularly is that a retreat to the past isn’t the answer. You can bitch about Marvel all you like, and a lot of it will be deserved, but you sure as hell can’t say they’re retreating to the past right now with their superhero lines. (Well, except for Amazing Spider-Man, but even there they’re trying to do “old-style” Spidey comics while introducing new characters and status quo. Also note the slow but steady sales decline on that title.) Marvel is taking chances while DC is resurrecting Barry fucking Allen because they’ve mishandled the Flash so badly they don’t think they have any choice, and their sales are proof enough of that.
(An aside: some people think that all of the bullshit that has happened to the Flash was on purpose. What the fuck are these people smoking? “Hey, guys, I’ve got a great idea. Let’s make Wally vanish, age Bart Allen so he’s not the popular character he used to be and turn HIM into the Flash, then start a new title with Bart as the Flash, but also let’s make sure the creative team puts out a story so jaw-droppingly bad that sales on the title plummet. Then we kill off Bart Allen without advertising it in advance to retailers, bring back Wally West in a hurry with a brand new status quo that we didn’t bother previously building up or advertising, and shift creative teams on the new Flash comic repeatedly to lessen fan interest in a hurry. It can’t miss!”)
I’m digressing here so let me get back to the main point: going to the well is not the answer. If you want to increase sales on the Legion, the solution is not pandering to the people who dropped the title in the Eighties, because most of them will never buy a comic again and the tiny remainder never quit buying Legion anyway. If you want to increase sales on the Legion a little, the trick is to write good stories. If you want to increase sales on the Legion a lot, the solution is new marketing and distribution plans. Going to “let’s make it like it was” is just digging yourself deeper into the same hole.
My ideal situation, then, coming out of Legion of Three Worlds is thus:
– the current “threeboot” Legion is the primary Legion and the one in the comics. This Legion has the most important gimmick for attracting new readers, which is relative immediacy – they’ve only been around a few years and they consequently possess a low barrier of entry. (This is not to say that I don’t love vast realms of backstory, because of course I do – but those vast realms of backstory can attract new readers without having to be reflected in the comic per se.)
– the Johns Legion continues to serve in the capacity they’ve been serving admirably: as the Legion who shows up in Superman comics to hang out with their buddy from time to time. Handwave, handwave, “Kal, you were actually traveling to Earth-2’s future all this time,” handwave.
– the reboot-era Legion with XS and Gates and Kid Quantum as the leader becomes the Justice Society to the threeboot Legion’s Justice League, to be called upon in semi-regular crossover stories a la the old days of Justice League of America. When the Legion gets desperate, they call the reboot Legion on the cross-dimensional-phone for help, or vice versa, or maybe they just meet up to hang out and compare their universes’ various Silverales.
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19 users responded in this post
Matt Fraction hasn’t written a bad comic yet.
“Pseudo-Levitzian” is a glorious neologism. It sounds profound, learned, and absurd all at the same time. Perfect.
Your solution works for me, absolutely.
It’ll never happen, but it works for me.
“The true test of an intelligent man is the degree to which he agrees with you.”
You’re obviously an intelligent man.
More specifically:
just wait – they’ll start having internet slapfights over when and how this “original” Legion diverges from the previous Legion stories. The fact that Karate Kid was alive and Polar Boy a member simultaneously – which never happened in the original Levitz run (KK died in LSH v3 #4, Polar Boy joined in #14) should cause a bitterly argued fifty-post thread on some messageboard.
Already happened. Several times. (Actually, the Karate Kid/Polar Boy thing has an answer: apparently Lightning Lad, Saturn Girl and Cosmic Boy used time travel to rescue Karate Kid from the moment of his death so that he could participate in the Lightning Saga and Countdown. So KK really was believed killed by Nemesis Kid, until, uh, sometime after Crisis on Infinite Earths, I guess. But this seems to be not widely understood.)
My point about the Legion nostalgists is this: of all comics, shouldn’t this one be more about the future than the past?
They aren’t even going to appeal to all the old-school Legion fans who do still read comics. Baxter era Legion was one of my most beloved comics; I was never attached to the reboots. And I *still* think it’s an awful, awful idea to retroboot.
Your idea is in fact excellent. Never happen, because Johns gotta have his beloved silver age totally restored, but it would work so much better.
“Old is the new new.” What a fitting battle cry for Captain Yesterday.
“Also note the slow but steady sales decline on that title.”
I’m so happy to read those words.
Sellyourselfshort: Have you been reading Punisher: War Journal recently? Granted, it’s the art more then the story that I take issue with, but the story isn’t making me want to keep buying the title. And honestly, I have no idea why I keep buying it.
I don’t know if I should feel bad for saying this, but I actually LIKED the Legion that appeared in Action Comics.
I’m only starting to accept that Superman isn’t as terrible as I thought he was, after picking up the Eric Powell drawn Bizarro world arc. I decided to stay on after that.
I previously didn’t REALLY read anything with the Legion in it, and while I knew OF the Legion, I never followed any title with them.
But I liked them in Action Comics, especially the Legion of Substitutes.
All I know is, I have no interest in LoSH until it says “Writer: The Goddamn Christopher Bird”…
The main bad thing about a Geoff Johns Legion is that the man doesn’t understand the 31sy Century is a utopian future. I just read my only Final Crisis tie-in, Legion of 3 Worlds, and that was the only thing that I disliked about the issue. Okay, not so thrilled with chunky Brainiac or the gay characters in the Legion no longer being gay but that’s extras. The distopia is practically a main character.
“What killed the book more than anything was DC’s moving the title exclusively to the direct market in the mid-80s, along with New Teen Titans and a bunch of other successful titles that, in retrospect, they must have felt were making too much money.”
So true. (Though I doubt the multiple reboots helped.)
To be honest, I’ve never captured an interest for Legion. I’ve tried several times and just don’t “get it”. I don’t really understand what the appeal behind the concept is. But it could also be that I started reading comics around the time of Zero Hour and seen the Legion get rebooted and rebooted and rebooted since then.
The only time I was remotely interested in Legion was when they had this epic story with some kind of plague across the universe, Legion being controlled or something. They won in the end, but then the creative team took a couple of them and sent them far away, thus Legion Lost. I seem to recall that creative team being on the book for quite a few years. I’d always heard lots of good things about it, but sadly, DC never got off their asses to reprint the run in trades.
Sellyourselfshort Says:
“Matt Fraction hasn’t written a bad comic yet.”
He’s young enough to have known the joys of the internet before he got published. I’m sure he’s got some sort of Human Torch/Hydro-Man/Lockjaw slashfic floating around under an assumed name.
The other continuity problem was Karate Kid being alive and mention being made of Sensor Girl, an id Jeckie assumed due to Val’s death.
I actually asked Geoff at the San Diego 50th Anniversary Legion panel where the divergence took place, and “post-Crisis” was as specific as he got (but acknowledging by lack of response to my bit about v4 obviously not having happened that it was before the Five Year Gap).
@NickPiers, while I’m not as big a Legion fan as some around here, my personal take was the Abnett and Lanning Legion (they did the run you’re talking about) was incredibly dull. I’ve seen lots of compliments for it, but it bored the crap out of me. A far cry, IMO, from the stellar (no pun intended) work they’ve done on Nova and now Guardians of the Galaxy.
I actually do think that the multiple reboots was the problem; moving it to the Direct Market didn’t help, I’m sure, but let’s face it, the move happened right around the time when the newsstand market became an irrelevancy anyways, and it couldn’t have preceded the ghettoization of comics by more than a few years. No, what killed the Legion was the decision to retcon away its origin in order to appease John Byrne’s ego, then bring in a bunch of clones who were the old characters, then scrap the whole thing and start over, then relaunch it with a new issue number one to throw casual fans into even more confusion, then finally scrap the whole thing one more time and start it over completely yet again.
However, whether or not rebooting was the cause of the problem, it can’t be the solution. There’s an old saying. “When you’re in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging.” If too many reboots has killed fan interest in a series, then the one thing that, by definition, will not fix it is another reboot. Even if it’s a reboot that undoes another reboot, even if it’s a reboot that brings back older elements of the series, the problem is not and has never been any specific element, it’s been the lack of consistency and stability to the series, and you can’t fix that by shaking things up some more.
I think John’s absolutely right (except for his underestimation of how the Baxter split killed DC’s two highest-selling titles at the time). If multiple reboots weren’t part of the problem before, they have become so now. Of course, that would have been a great argument not to reboot the Legion the last time, when Waid took over–now the franchise is saddled with his thinly-developed, poorly-conceived setting and it can’t tolerate another reboot to wipe the slate clean.
Having read, now, Legion of Three Worlds, I find that my problem seems to be that the main Legion, the one that seems to count, isn’t the one that has the monthly book, it’s Johns’ Legion from Action. Sure, I loved that Legion, when it was being published, but the current Legion is what is in continuity. That should be the one that counts. However, the story seems to be being told from the POV of Johns’ Legion.
*sigh*
My love for the Legion — in all its incarnations — is being sorely tested here.
I actually like punisher war journal, although it seems lately that i’m the only one person that does. Howard Chaykin’s art is still horrible though