Finally, something I feel remotely qualified to talk about!
Over at the Comic Book Bin, Hervé St-Louis has exposed a cancer that’s been eating away at the comic book industry: creators who think more highly of themselves than St-Louis believes they should.
Says St-Louis: “In response to my last articles … a smart commenter responded to my article saying, essentially, that because he owned his comic book … it would not be stale but a fresh alternative to material owned by large corporations like DC and Marvel Comics. His comment is typical cult of the creator attitude where it’s assumed that ownership leads to better comic books. Of course, this writer thinks that this is bullshit.”
This writer agrees that the assumption that ownership leads to better comic books is bullshit. This writer also thinks the notion of the cult of the creator is bullshit.
In a previous article, St-Louis describes the ‘cult of the comic creator’ as “ a faction within the comic book industry, that shares a perspective whereby the creator of a comic book as a social construct, is more important than the creation itself.”
There is such a faction, but I don’t call it a cult. I call it ‘comics creators.’ I’m nominally a member of that group, so take that into account when I say the following:
There is no cult of the creator.
Far from it. Unlike those whose publishers automatically get their work the attention of Marvel Zombies and the citizenry of the DC Nation, creators working on their own material have to struggle to find any sort of useful support, from anyone, be it distributors, retailers, publishers or that holiest of grails, the potential readership. That’s because nobody other than the creators themselves has much reason to give a shit about what they’re doing, even if it is a fresh alternative to material owned by large corporations.1
Nobody I know of automatically assumes creator ownership leads to better comics, not even comic creators. Talent and skill lead to better comics, and that’s pretty much it. The question this so-called cult has isn’t whether creator ownership leads to better comic books; it’s whether corporate ownership of creators’ work tends to lead to worse comic books, and whether loss of ownership benefits creators enough to be worth giving up their property anyway.
Without taking a definitive stance on the former–which is an apples to hand grenades comparison anyway unless the creator-owner has access to resources at least in the same ballpark as the Big Two–I’d say that if2 corporate ownership led to worse comics, it would hardly be a surprise, considering the conditions under which those comics are created. Making the creative process conform to a factory assembly line model that churns out x number of pages a month come hell or high water isn’t a scenario that lends itself to the creation of great works (though as a creator I like to think talent and skill will out and greatness can be achieved under almost any deadline.)
In regards to the latter, well, that’s really up to the individual creators to decide.3
“This assumption that comic books owned by their creators are better started first with the likes of Dave Sim in the 1980s…”
Really, Mr. St-Louis? Are you sure it didn’t start with someone setting up a straw man argument against the rights of creators…?
I dunno. Maybe it’s true, maybe someone does assume creator-owned books are superior to corporate-owned ones simply because they’re creator-owned and not because they’re, well, actually better. But I don’t think that person is Dave Sim. As I recall from the Cerebus Guide to Self-Publishing4, he was fairly blunt in stating that his self-publishing crusade led to a lot of crap being produced and that he was aware of that going in. I believe some creators even expressed feelings of betrayal by his casual dismissal of the difficulties they encountered in part because they followed his advice.
“Those libertarian ideas, which of course Sim believes in, dictates to him that he should be his own man, his own master his own slave and that none of the work he does, should benefit a system or in the case of comic books a corporation.”
I feel a little weird speaking on Dave Sim’s behalf–it’s not like he’s got a problem speaking for himself–but the evidence available doesn’t support St-Louis’ statement. As far as I can tell, Sim doesn’t believe a corporation shouldn’t benefit from his work, so much as corporations don’t believe he should benefit from his work to the degree he feels he deserves. It wasn’t so long ago that Sim was negotiating with DC to do some work on a Fables-related project. The two parties couldn’t come to a mutually-acceptable agreement, but that Sim would make the effort at all indicates to me that he’s not averse to working with a corporation.
I can see why a corporation would be averse to working with him, though.
“This reactionary attitude is of course an after effect of the dubious treatment of comic book artists in the 1970s…”
…and the 1960s. And the 1950s. And the 1940s. And the late 1930s…
“As soon as a comic book creator went too far off the edge, his editors would rein him in because of the potential to damage the licensing appeal of the comic book property owned by the publisher and its parent company.”
His editors would also rein a creator in if he demanded more compensation than the company wished to pay; if the creator wished to violate an arbitrary set of guidelines put in place during the ‘50s; if the editor thought the creator needed to be shown who was boss; if the editor was having a bad day…
“It was easy for artists to feel alienated and restricted creatively.”
Feelings of alienation and creative restriction are surprisingly widespread among those who are being alienated and creatively restricted.
“This writer argues that in order to alleviate the risk of their self publishing venture, the original founders at Image engineered a public relations’ story about how it was important for them to own their creations and be their own masters. They argued that with total creative control over their creations, that they could finally publish contents that would not be edited and allow them to reach their creative limits.”
(Insert joke about those creative limits being more limited than might have been hoped here.)
“But in order to make a successful jump on their own, the Image Comics’ founders needed the public to believe that their intentions were good and for the benefit of readers. They had to carve a marketshare on the shelf in the minds of readers to have them develop the habit that as well as buying Superman and Spider-man every month, that they also had to buy Spawn and Pitt. Buying Spawn and Pitt was not just buying a regular comic book; it was being part of a comic book revolution and changing the rules of the games.”
All of which is different from Stan Lee’s pitching Marvel as ‘must reading’ how? Other than the creators of Image’s initial publishing line benefited from the continued exploitation of their work, unlike Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko, I mean.
“Or so they said. In hindsight, the campaign to generate legitimacy to Image Comics, in its initial years worked well enough that many of the original founders succeed well financially.”
Generate legitimacy? What? I mean … what? In a post-Cerebus/TMNT world, how the fuck does a group of comics creators self-publishing–the biggest creators in the North American comics mainstream at the time no less–need to generate ‘legitimacy’?
“Creatively, the level of success is another matter.
“Just like Sim who had relied of artist Gerhard in the past to complete his work, so did many of the Image Comics founders rely on popular artists and writers to help their creations reach new creative heights. Many Image Comics’ creators set up studios where they engaged in work for hire practices that were relatively similar to those practiced by publishers such as DC and Marvel Comics.”
Is this just an accident of two sentences being in unfortunately close proximity or is St-Louis trying to imply Gerhard worked on Cerebus on a work-for-hire basis? Because that’s not my understanding of Sim and Gerhard’s arrangement…
“But because the comic books were owned by their original creators, comic book readers were continually told that the books were better and more genuine than anything published by DC and Marvel Comics.”
Comics creators and publishers engaging in hyperbole to try and sell their product? I’m shocked, shocked, I say! How dare they use the techniques that worked for their former employers for decades for their own benefit!
“Of the Image Comics’ crowd, this writer would argue that very few really had the ideals of self publishing as a way to create better comic books and as a venue for self expression at heart.”
Creating better comics and a venue for self-expression are admirable ideals, but this writer would argue that they aren’t the ideals of self-publishing. Controlling the fruits of one’s labours is.
“Jim Valentino and Erik Larsen are the two Image Comics founders who have been the most dedicated to their creations and are the romantic ideal of the self publisher.”
Good for them. Romantic ideals are the best ideals of all, more people should try to live up to them. Mind you, Image Comics is a business, like Marvel and DC. It’s just one that offers creators a vastly different deal from Marvel and DC. And as a business, it’s got to deal in reality if it’s going to stay afloat.
“Looking at the output of comic books from the founders of Image Comics, the quality of the books is not uniform and thus does not prove that self publishers produce better comic books than creators working on licensed properties owned by corporations.”
Nope. It just proves that popular creators can produce work at roughly the same level as the material they did on a work-for-hire basis and reap the potentially massive long-term benefits of owning their creations rather than the short-term benefit of a page rate.
“The problem this writer has with the cult of the comic book creator, as romanticized by Image Comics, is that a whole generation of creator believes that the ultimate way to reach ultimate self expression is through self publishing.”
The problem this writer has with the other writer’s position is that the other writer seems to believe creators believing something that’s basically true is a problem.
“However, self publishing is a business venture and business is not artistry.”
Uh, yeah, so that’s not true.
Self-publishing is what the individual self-publisher says it is.
There’s a whole shelving unit at my local comic shop filled with the work of local comics creators. Most self-published that work in a variety of formats, from hundred+ page trade paperbacks to small print-run pamphlets to minicomics. The vast majority of those self-publishers didn’t make their work available for business reasons, and it’s a good thing too, because most of them will never make the money they invested in printing back, much less turn a profit. They did it because they wanted to use the comics medium to express themselves. And the only way they were going to be able to do that was by doing it themselves.
St-Louis finishes his article by promising a part two. I look forward to it with the same mixture of dread and car-crash fascination I felt reading part the first.
-Foley
- It often isn’t–an awful lot of creators also hold as their most cherished dream the opportunity to have their work be owned wholly by a major publisher’s parent company. [↩]
- IF [↩]
- Even if the individual creators are wrong, wrong, WRONG, as is frequently the case. I speak from personal experience, here, and believe me, I wish I didn’t. [↩]
- or whatever his self-publishing book was called [↩]
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15 users responded in this post
Dude, Hervé St-Louis’ views on things tend to tilt towards the “The Siegels and Shusters and Kirbys are all greedy bastards who hate the fans!” type of crowd.
I wouldn’t take any of his positions seriously.
How often does he refer to himself as “this writer?” It seems like once per sentence.
Good defense, even if St-Louis is arguing a point that I don’t think a lot of people even believe.
I’m not sure where it fits into the argument above, but in this writer’s (this commenter? this replyer? how about ‘this dude’) opinion The Maxx was one of best comics to come out of the early 90’s. It was remarkable, in my opinion, not only because of the strong vision of the work, but it’s the only time I’ve ever read a comic and felt like part of a community. I don’t think there’s any way it could have been published from either of the big two in that time frame, and I don’t think I would have been a reader of it if it hadn’t come from Image at that time.
Maybe the fact that I read the comic and felt a strong connection to the creator and the rest of the audience is evidence of this ‘cult’ but I don’t think it is. Maybe the fact that The Maxx had a unique marketing footing, such as a animated adaptation on MTV is evidence that marketing sucess and artistry aren’t necessary at cross purposes or maybe that a creater owned property is just as likely to be as ruthlessly milked cash cow as any coporate-owned IP (Spawn is clearly an example of that).
I just don’t like it that when people mention Image they only mention shallow whipping boys like Spawn and Pitt.
I think even if St-Louis gets a bit rant-like in his speech, at least it’s easy to follow his train of thought, which I can appreciate. And then completely not support.
As a kind-of-aside, could you italicize the part that are St-Louis talking? Apart from the quotation marks, which I didn’t always notice the presence/absence of, there’s no clear distinction between when you’re talking and when he’s talking.
This is an example of a fairly common logical fallacy (I forget which one exactly; I’ve seen it called “bootstrapping” but there’s a more formal name for it). St-Louis presents as his nominal thesis a basically inarguable point (“Creator-owned comics are not necessarily better than corporate-owned comics”) and sneakily presents his actual thesis (“creator-ownership is not better for comics and creators than corporate ownership”) as a premise leading to that conclusion. He also presents a false dichotomy between self-publishing and work-for-hire, as though nobody who publishes through a larger press retains ownership of their work.
Jake: Done.
I don’t understand what the dispute is, at the end of it all.
Comparing DC / Marvel to Image you really only have to ask two questions:
1) What is the rate of sales? If sales are going up (at least, relative to the industry) you can conclude that writers are creating appreciated works and new readers are getting converted into loyal patrons. All that talk about “creative freedom” operates under the assumption that more freedom means better comics. And better comics should lead to higher sales. Therefore, a steadily increasing readership should indicate a superior product triumphing in the marketplace. If Image comics pick up a smaller audience than DC / Marvel, and never expand after that, it seems that self-ownership results in a niche market without much overarching appeal.
2) What is the rate of compensation? The goal of self-ownership being (at least partially) profit motivated, if DC / Marvel writers get salary and benefits equal to or better than Image counterparts, then it seems self-ownership is self-defeating, financially.
If one business model captures both points, I think we can conclude that model superior. You have artists producing superior products at better rates of compensation. If the models split the points, you get to trade off between fame and fortune with one model offering a better soap box to deliver your media while the other offers a better pay scale to a smaller audience.
Hervé St-Louis doesn’t seem interested in either of these metrics, though. He’s obsessed with high school level culture/counter-culture bullshit about “What people think” rather than addressing anything substantive. He labels independent creators a “cult” in attempt to denigrate the practice, and he waxes poetic feelings and attitudes and preconceptions.
All this type space, and he doesn’t say a damn thing concerning how well the Image business model worked. Aside from a few dates, I don’t see anything quantitative about his analysis. It’s a piece written strictly from the gut, and carries all the hard facts and heavy statistics of a romance novel.
I mean, maybe St. Louis is right and Image is an under performing enterprise, but looking at this little piece of prose, even he wouldn’t know it.
Dammit! We have to endure yet another history of Image!?
Man…..you could travel back in time and force Valentino, Liefield, Lee etc. to sign binding contracts with the big two, at gun-point and the entire INTERNETZ would collapse from the sudden vacuum in discussion.
Garn.
I dunno. Swing by John Byrne’s forum and you see a pretty cultish clique.
And it’s hard to swallow that there isn’t a lot of people willing to praise the shit out of anything that doesn’t have Marvel or DC somewhere or other on the cover. Maybe not people willing to actually buy that shit and not get it off a torrent, but there’s so much shit out there that gets a free pass because it’s not big two.
The writer keeps confusing financial success (the primary subject of his post) with artistic achievement. You don’t have to love Spawn or his creator to acknowledge that if any anyone got rich of Spawn’s early run, it should be Todd McFarlane and not some vast corporate entity. To state the painfully obvious, McFarlane is better off for having kept the character to himself rather than taking it to Marvel. Straw man is right.
On the other hand, he does make the interesting (and valid) point that the Image creators claimed that they were acting to support the rights of creators, who were being oppressed by the Big Two and not allowed to share in the fruits of their labors due to restrictive work-for-hire agreements…
And then went out and hired a bunch of young artists, signed them to work-for-hire agreements, and proceeded to exploit them in exactly the same way that the Big Two exploited their young talent. 🙂 (Although arguably less expertly; Todd McFarlane’s brouhaha with Neil Gaiman showed that Tood still needs to work on his exploiting skills before his next court appearance.)
I could see that as a legitimate argument, if you wanted to try to rewrite the column into something coherent; the vast majority of small publishers in the industry don’t play nice because they’re legitimately principled, but because they lack the clout to do what Marvel and DC do.
I don’t know that Robert Kirkman on Invincible is automatically better than Kirkman writing X-Men. I do know that he can do whatever he wants on Invincible and he can make more money in the long run. Even if X-Men sells 100,000 copies and Invincible sells 25,000 copies, in the long run he’s getting the reprint rights, the merchanding rights, and the movie or animation rights if that ever comes up.
The most important advantage of self-publishing, IMO, is that it eliminates the worst kind of comics: the kind where the creator simply doesn’t care about the end product at all. DC especially is guilty of releasing comics that exist only because of a market niche that they imagine needs filling – comics like Outsiders that nobody likes or wants to read or write – and sticking those comics to some starving artist who couldn’t care less about them but needs to make the rent somehow. The result may be technically competent if the artist is, but it is bland and soulless.
Hello guys.
1-Using “this writer” and so on is a convention in academic writing and professional journalistic circles to avoid using “I,” “me” and so on. If you’re gonna criticize someone, don’t criticize him for using standards you’re not familiar with.
2-Nowhere did I write or say that creators should not have rights of their own. There is an assumption that because I don’t encourage the excesses of the cult of the comic book creator, that I must be anti creator. That’s a big leap to make and a misrepresentation of what I wrote. Please stick to what is actually on the page itself and not second guesses on what is not.
3-I did not oppose self publishing to company-owned publishing. Again, people are making assumptions on what I did not write. And about the third solution, creators owning their materials published at publishers, it’s mentioned that it’s part two. Saying I did not cover that when I wrote clearly at the end of the article that it would come is not paying attention and again jumping to conclusions without a parachute.
4-I find many of Foley’s argument childish. For example, the scorn he reflects about the Image Comics’ crowd. It reminds me of the same patronizing attitude Heidi MacDonald had when she referred to Todd McFarlane as “Toddy.” My article was not about the artistic merits of the Image Comics’ founders’ work. I treated them with respect and avoided falling into the typical trap of just attacking them on the creative output, like is frequently done. What I criticized was their business and marketing techniques.
5-About being a “company man” versus supportive of “indy” creators.
First, I’ve written it a long time ago and you guys can find it in the Other Comics’ section of the site, I don’t like the dichotomy mainstream versus independent/alternative. I seriously believe that a comic book should not be defined as the anti thesis of another. Which of course, leads to the logical argument that I am neither a “zombie” like DC/Marvel fanboy as many have tried to pinned me as or someone that hates “independents.”
If I hated independents and self publishers, I would not have spent years arguing that they need to improve their business skills. I would not have bothered writing a series of articles on business plans for publishers that can help any one starting out publish their comic books. If I was so against self publishers and just a DC/Marvel guy, the Bin would not have the best English-speaking European comic book section available. It would not even bother with manga and yaoi (which I don’t read). Nope, we would just focus on Marvel and DC and never sink them and be very critical of them in reviews and articles. I’m the same guy that criticized Zuda Comics for their dubious creator’s rights proposals as well as gave Marvel’s Secret Invasion #5 a 0/10 and called it racist.
The point is, I care about all comic books but I am critical of all of them equally. Just because I like Nexus, I don’t give Steve Rude a pass when he deserves a fail. These are the ideals we have at the Bin. We are independent. I am independent and free thinking.
It’s annoying to be pinned as a company man when we are definitely not that. I’m the guy who asked about the abuse of Don Decarlo to Archie Comics’ publisher in an interview. But I’m the same guy that will criticize extremes by comic book creators when I see them and I did.
6-Self publishing is a business venture. The moment the creator publishes multiple copies of his originals to make them available to more than one person, he enters the business realm, whether he only wants to sell 5 copies instead of 1000. And the moment he steps into that space, he has responsibilities as a business man. That, if you guys want to pin anything on me is what you should. I don’t give a pass to any comic book creator that thinks he’s just enjoying himself when he tries to sell his stuff.
A few specific points
8-I wrote about the business success of the Image model in the past. I didn’t have to repeat that article. What do is link to it within the article, if possible.
9-There is a cult of the comic book creator. Many don’t like the term, but there is such an attitude which in my opinion hurts the comic book industry. Owning one’s property or self publishing, is but one aspect of that and it is in that context that I wrote the first part of that article. You’ll notice that in the comic book creator copyrights article, I addressed the cult of the comic book creator, but did not address self publishing.
Best regards
I read both articles and all the comments. God, how aggravating. Brave of you to attempt a discourse, Andrew.