A lot of kafuffle was raised yesterday about Michael Douglas being cast as Hank Pym in the Ant-Man movie. First off, we’re not sure why there is kafuffle anyway because come on, it’s Ant-Man for crissake, it’s not like we’re recasting Wolverine or anybody important, it’s just Ant-Man, whose superhero name is a punchline and who in comics is so famous for being unable to find a consistently successful identity which fans like that it has, in fact, become the character’s thing to switch names every so often.
But basically the nature of the kafuffle was to say that Michael Douglas in real life is much older than Hank Pym is in the comics. Which: again, it’s Hank Pym. I know there are people out there who care greatly about Hank Pym, but the movies make concessions about character biographies all the time – that’s part and parcel of adaptation. But the question then becomes: what do you really lose by having Hank Pym be older? Because I’m not sure what the answer to that is, exactly.
Can Older Hank Pym still go on superhero adventures? I would suggest that in a world where Christopher Lee can have lightsaber battles then its reasonable for Hank Pym to put on his labcoat and have a bunch of shrink-down weapons in his pockets and be Doctor Pym, or if you want to go for laughs he can even put on a costume. Can Older Hank Pym still have a relationship with Janet Van Dyne? It’d be weird, but sure. (Remember that originally in the comics Hank was twice as old as Janet was until they retconned that away.) Do we particularly lose anything if Scott Lang dates Janet Van Dyne instead of Hank?
Is this about the casting of Douglas specifically, as opposed to a generic older respected actor? Because, as William Goldman pointed out a long time ago, Douglas specializes in playing the modern, flawed American man – and depending on your view of Hank Pym this either makes Douglas perfect for the job or is conceding that Hank Pym is a terrible wifebeater.
And let’s be honest: the domestic abuse aspect of Hank Pym is a third rail, probably the reason that Paul Rudd is playing Scott Lang instead of Pym. Hank Pym fans can talk about mind control and mental illness all they like but the truth about Hank Pym is that the character will always carry that baggage, and even if a Hank Pym movie never had him engaging in domestic abuse people would still wonder when it was coming, just as people wonder if and when the “Tony Stark is an alcoholic” coin will drop in the RDJ movies (answer: who knows if it even will).
I don’t have definitive answers for any of these questions, honestly. But they’re all there, lurking, and the internet kafuffle yesterday serves to remind us of that.
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I wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment. While casual moviegoers (and let’s be honest, the name Ant-Man doesn’t scream box office record-breaker), won’t be familiar with Pym’s history, anybody who has ever read a comic book will be waiting for the exact moment where Pym gets all crazy and slaps around his wife. If I had to guess, Marvel will appease the diehards by making Pym the creator of the Ant-Man formula (or whatever they end up calling it) and Lang a regular guy who steals it for whatever reason.
Pym will spend the first act trying to hunt down Lang. After seeing how he plans to use the technology, Pym will then become a mentor of sorts.
They already briefly touched on the Tony Stark=alcoholic thing in Iron Man 2 when Tony gets sort of drunk and fights with Rhodes during that party. I wouldn’t expect to see it mentioned again.
There’s no way in hell they’ll ever do the Iron Man alcoholic story. It doesn’t jive with the tone of the MCU, which for the most part is lighthearted action and quips. Not only that but Marvel will never do it because of the kids in the audience. The outcome would be one of two ways. 1) It’d turn into a “very special episode” of the Marvel movies. 2) Parents would be very hesitant to bring their kids (or not approve) of this superhero that so many children idolize into a drunk.
The far as they’ll take it was in Iron Man 2 where it was still in the “he’s a jerk and this is pathetic but still kinda funny.”
As for Ant-Man. Yeah, who cares. It’s Hank Pym. Scott Lang will be the focus anyway which is the better choice. Lang is, so far, the most “regular guy” you could throw into The Avengers. Pym would just be another superhero genius. If anything I’d say they’re going to make Hank a buddy of Howard Stark.
Prediction: Scott is a burglar blackmailed into pulling off a heist for some bad guys. Maybe they’ll use Cassie? So he steals the Ant-Man suit from Pym so SHIELD and Pym are looking for Lang who also has to steal something important and save his kid.
I think PymFans may be legitimately disappointed at the idea that the movie version might bleed into the comics, as they often do. Hank’s been getting some decent treatment in the comics from writers who like him (like Waid) and his fans were probably hoping the movie would help to erase the image of Pym as a crazy abusive failure. Now it could be that the image of Pym as an old washed-up superhero could become the comics version.
I mean, as a fan of Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch I’m looking forward to seeing them in Avengers 2, but I’m also looking forward to the effect that appearance may have on the comics, as writers will suddenly have to pretend they like those characters. So I can see how a big Pym fan would dread the idea of Lang being huge and Pym being Lang’s mentor.
BTW, Wright talked about as far back as 2006 the idea of having an older Pym who adventured back in the day, coupled with a younger Lang:
“Well, the thing is that what we want to do, the idea that we have for the adaptation is to actually involve both. Is to have a film that basically is about Henry Pym and Scott Lang, so you actually do a prologue where you see Pym as Ant-Man in action in the 60’s, in sort of “Tales to Astonish” mode basically, and then the contemporary, sort of flash-forward, is Scott Lang’s story, and how he comes to acquire the suit, how he crosses paths with Henry Pym, and then, in an interesting sort of Machiavellian way, teams up with him. So it’s like an interesting thing, like the “Marvel Premiere” one that I read which is Scott Lang’s origin, it’s very brief like a lot of those origin comics are, and in a way, the details that are skipped through in the panels and the kind of thing we’d spend half an hour on.”
(http://www.superherohype.com/features/articles/91587-exclusive-edgar-wright-talks-ant-man, referenced by Wright again on his Twitter yesterday)
I like the idea of Pym as part of sort of the “lost generation” of science folks in the MCU, not being super heroes, but working behind the scenes with the early days of SSR-turned-SHIELD. It makes the idea of Lang using the theft of the the “Ant-Man”suit to be a more public hero all the more ironic if Pym could have been but wasn’t* — it also makes for an interesting story where Lang is dealing with the villains he’s fighting AND Pym as another antagonist (as was done in MARVEL PREMIERE and other adaptations — and could be why early sources claimed Pym was a “villain”) before teaming up with Pym & dealing with the legacy question.
That whole legacy issue is one that isn’t dealt with in the MCU so far but is one that superhero fans know. By having two generations of Ant-Men — and having an actor like Douglas who can sell Pym as a character with a lost history — that gives Ant-Man something that the other folks in the MCU movies don’t have. Even Iron Man & War Machine/Iron Patriot have more of a “spinoff” or “rebrand” relationship rather than a proper “passing the torch” relationship, and that’s what this sort of storyline gives Marvel the chance to explore.
*Fury’s line in IRON MAN about there being other superheroes suggest that other individuals with capabilities are out there, but aren’t public/ Pym could have been one during the Cold War.
I could see this premise working, but it seems more like a Venture Brothers episode than what I would want to see in an Ant-Man movie starring Paul Rudd.
At least there is source material in the comics to help justify it, I guess.
A Hank Pym kerfuffle gives me hope that someday someone other than me might get emotionally involved in the casting of Aquaman. Except obviously no one in their right mind would ever put Aquaman in any movie ever.
Does Hank Pym drink his Pym’s Cup out of a pimp cup?
(Not sorry.)
It’s interesting that Marvel just can’t retcon “Hank Pym hits his wife” away in the minds of Marvel readers. Peter Parker hit MJ with a hard backhand once, but everyone from creators to fans decided they didn’t like that so no one ever acknowledges it. It just never happened. With Pym it stuck.
Frankly, casting Douglas suggests they could take Hank Pym in either direction: either he’s a wifebeater and the main villain, or it never happened.
You mean during the Clone Saga, right? Because it’s not like the backhand is the only thing people ignore from those days.
If I had to guess why, I’d say it’s because there’s a lot more to Spider-Man. What else does Ant-Man have going on? He shrinks and grows (but rarely both at once). That’s useful depending on what limits you give it, but it’s not as catchy and grokkable as “superstrong, super reflexes, and webs.” He’s a scientist, but the Avengers also have Iron Man and Bruce Banner, and Hank McCoy sometimes, and Reed Richards lives in the same city. Being a shrinking superhero is kind of inherently funny, but if you rely on that too much you leave the superhero genre behind entirely and you’re now in “Honey I Shrunk the Kids.” So what else could he be known for, other than nearly getting the people close to him killed?
@ScottyDubsSD:
I grant that I haven’t been following the more recent adventures of Hank Pym, but wasn’t the hitting Janet stuff about 20 years ago? Have they had him act that way more recently?
Even if they have, I can’t see it as the thing folks are sitting on the edge of their seats waiting for. I don’t recall anyone, in writing about the Iron Man movie, saying “I kept waiting for Tony to get stinking drunk and start using his repuslor rays to trash billboards!”
UNLESS there’s a scene where Hank starts getting into a heated argument with Janet, I can’t see why anyone would be anticipating him getting “all crazy” and abusive.
Hank punching Janet is fairly far back for regular Marvel, but even more abusive Hank is more recent for Ultimate Marvel. Which in some spots, like casting Samuel L. Jackson, is closer to the Marvel Movie. Though even that IS getting into its second decade…
I’m also more disinterested in Rudd as Lang then Douglas as Pym. Outside of hitting people with foam swords while in KISS makeup I’ve never really pictured Rudd as any kind of action hero, much less a super one…
The difference between Hank and Spider-Man is that Marvel has had a whole bunch of stories that refer to Hank’s abuse of Janet (it even spilled over into the Ultimates universe), while the incident with Mary Jane was never really mentioned again, so it’s much easier to ignore and basically take the position that, canonically, it never happened.
“So what else could he be known for, ”
hey, he also made Ultron.
Is it a lead-in to Avengers 2, or does it come out after that? Because I can see some Ultron prequelling if it comes out before.
But I didn’t see anything near kerfuffle over Douglas. It didn’t even raise a milli-Affleck on my radar.
Outside of hitting people with foam swords while in KISS makeup I’ve never really pictured Rudd as any kind of action hero
And Beetlejuice would make a lousy Batman, Wolverine can’t be played by someone well over 6 feet tall, and Johannsen is eye candy only and could never pass as someone who could kick ass.
I’m not suggesting all casting decisions work, but if anything pre-judging them is certainly a very risky proposition.
It’s not just that Peter hit MJ. It’s that Peter was trying to kill Ben Reilly, and when MJ (who was pregnant at the time) tried to get Peter to take his hands off Ben’s throat, Peter hit her hard enough to send that she hit the wall on the opposite side of the room.
But because that happened during a storyline that was meant to replace Peter with Ben, fans haven’t clung to it the way they did Pym hitting Janet during a storyline that was meant to show him having a complete mental breakdown, then redeeming himself.
I always thought Paul Rudd would make a great… Madrox. Oh well, near enough.
Michael Douglas having a romantic relationship with a younger woman? The world will never believe that.
If they’re making Pym an older dude, why not cast an older lady as Janet?
hahahahaha yeah right
Yes, I carefully was vague about it. “nearly getting the people close to him killed?” encompasses a lot of his career.
That would be awesome.
I know we got Madrox in a movie, technically, but what a waste of potential. There really is room for a superhero comedy. The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy movie languished in development hell for 20 years because no one thought sci-fi comedy could be done, but then Men In Black made tons of money. Superhero movies are already half comedy anyway. Why not X-Factor? 90s-era, probably. Havok is the tightass all-business boss whose temper literally makes things explode, Quicksilver can run into a wall at least once, Wolfsbane can have a problem with chasing sticks at crucial moments, and Madrox can do exactly what he actually does in the comics. For the villain, they can go way back to Chris Claremont’s original drawing board and have Mr. Sinister be the figment of a child’s imagination.
Did they retcon Peter snapping Gwen Stacey’s neck? Or how about that deal with Mephisto?
As far as I know they’re both still canon, but not too relevant during the current SpOck era. Also, as for the neck-snapping, I think canon is that he just couldn’t have saved her. She would have been falling fast enough by that point that hitting the water would have killed her. I know comic book characters have variable terminal velocity all the time, but I think that’s the official word.
@Cyrus:
Squirrel!
“Yes, I carefully was vague about it. “nearly getting the people close to him killed?” encompasses a lot of his career. ”
Didn’t Ultron also slaughter either a city, or a country-full of people at some point?
“when MJ (who was pregnant at the time) tried to get Peter to take his hands off Ben’s throat, Peter hit her hard enough to send that she hit the wall on the opposite side of the room.”
I actually find “hitting someone who is interfering in a fight” less reprehensible for a superhero than “slapping a bitch who just won’t shut up.”
I thought Marvel had gone ahead and all but confirmed that Tony Stark would be the one to build Ultron this time around? I mean, what with that teaser trailer for Avengers 2 showing his helmet being beaten into the shape of Ulton’s head.
My first introduction to Ant Man (as a character, not a punchline) was “Avengers: Earth’s Mightiest Heroes”. The cartoon version of Pym was an idealist who was more interested in research and rehabilitating villains rather than punching them out. But all of his work with the Avengers involves hitting people, all of his attempts to help rehabilitate villains fail, and eventually he’s forced to turn his Ultron helper bots into an army in order to fight off Kang the Conqueror. I felt for the guy, considering how all of his attempts to help the world blew up in his face.
“I actually find “hitting someone who is interfering in a fight” less reprehensible for a superhero than “slapping a bitch who just won’t shut up.””
For the eighth time, he was on drugs, going insane, that was hardly the worst thing he did at the time, and there’s a good chance it was an accident. Seriously, author notes just said “he’s waving his hands around all crazy-like and hits her because he’s being careless.”
“For the eighth time, he was on drugs, going insane, that was hardly the worst thing he did at the time, and there’s a good chance it was an accident. Seriously, author notes just said “he’s waving his hands around all crazy-like and hits her because he’s being careless.””
“There’s a good chance it was an accident”? Have you actually looked at the panel as it was published? I understand that a lot of dudes did *not* want to publish a comic where a dude yells “SHUT UP!” as he “WHAK”s a woman in the middle of a sentence, but why is that so important to people? Why are we supposed to, in this instance, pretend that something happened other than what was actually drawn in the comic? Why is that especially important to people who are trying to make Spider-Man out as intentionally abusive, when we have exactly the same sort of “it wasn’t supposed to get drawn like that” evidence for that one?
“Why are we supposed to, in this instance, pretend that something happened other than what was actually drawn in the comic?”
I rather think it’s because the writer of that scene wrote one thing, and the artist drew something else, and the unforgiving nature of deadlines meant that it didn’t get fixed.
However, don’t take my word for it. Here’s the guy who wrote it: http://www.jimshooter.com/2011/03/hank-pym-was-not-wife-beater.html
I haven’t read the other responses but I have to say I am completely in favor of more older adult heroes and less of this ‘dunno what to write, i guess make them a teenager’ stuff. It’s just as absurd that a 15 year old could do these things, if age is the objection.
I don’t have any strong feelings about Michael Douglas but seriously Ant-Man before Carol Danvers? Or any one of dozens of other interesting female characters?
Chris K, Peter was trying to murder another hero. So how do you not find “hitting someone hard enough to make them fly across the room and slam into a wall for trying to save someone’s life” more objectionable?
I think that most people who go will be fans of the MCU and as such won’t have the nerdy knowledge we do. Besides as stated above Earth’s Mightiest Heroes managed to make a good compelling Hank Pym without bringing up abuse. But I guess we’ll have to put a pym in that idea.