David Uzimeri on Twitter complained thusly:
legitimately sad shailene woodley won't be mary jane because i'm still annoyed by the nerds saying she wasn't hot enough
— David Uzumeri (@DavidUzumeri) January 21, 2014
And I had heard nothing of this, mostly because I tend to ignore nerd news about casting unless people make a fuss about it somewhere I might read it (e.g. not Ain’t It Cool News or one of the myriad websites that wish, for some reason, that they were Ain’t It Cool News). So I Googled “Shailene Woodley not attractive enough to play MJ” and confirmed for myself that, yes, this was a nerd thing. And there are two points I have to make here, and then I’m going to ramble for a bit.
Firstly: by any reasonable standard, Shailene Woodley is really very pretty. Quite lovely. Definitely good-looking. And so forth. The idea that she is not attractive enough to play Mary Jane in a Spider-Man movie is just kind of weird.1
Secondly, though, is the thing that caused this: the ongoing idea that Mary Jane has to be otherworldly levels of hot, which is the root cause of people being stupid and saying that a beautiful young actor is somehow not beautiful enough to play Mary Jane; Mary Jane must be played by someone who is the ne plus ultra of beauty, beauty dialed up to eleven, beauty of the gods. And typically I find this is because people have no idea who Mary Jane is, as a character, besides “she’s super hot” – which explains why, then, that people have to have Mary Jane played by a goddess in human form. If the only quality you assign to Mary Jane is hotness, then a Spider-Man movie where Mary Jane is only very pretty would be like a Batman movie where Batman doesn’t fight crime.2
Of course, this is stupid. Granted, I say that as someone who is a big Mary Jane fan – Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane is one of my favorite comic books ever – but that doesn’t mean I’m wrong. Mary Jane is best when she’s defined by her toughness, not her hotness. Just after Civil War and just prior to the Mephisto marriage reboot, Matt Fraction wrote a great Amazing Spider-Man annual that was basically the pro-MJ argument summed up: she’s tough and she’s smart and once she picks her side (which is Peter, obviously) she is there. (“He’s my husband. You’re just some guy.” That line is a fucking hammerblow, Thor should be envious of that line.)
Emphasizing MJ’s hotness as being somehow a superpower is also, I think, one of the key reasoning flaws behind why the “Peter/MJ marriage doesn’t work” argument is such bunk; one of the key elements of that argument is that Peter is meant to have a hard life (undeniably true, he’s a fortitude-based character, his hallmark is that he endures hardship on all levels, that’s what it is to be Spider-Man) and that being married to MJ somehow undoes this because she is beautiful. I am not being reductionist in any way when I say that’s the argument: numerous people have said precisely this very thing,, that Spider-Man having a hot wife undoes the character, as if somehow “hot wife” means “everything right in the world” or for that matter that being hot somehow requires a character to have no burdens in life.
Just because MJ has been an actress/supermodel in the past does not mean she has to continue being these things. J. Michael Straczynski gets a lot of crap for his comics work, and some of it deserved, but one thing his era of Spider-Man brought to the table was that MJ could have a failing career and this would not in any way harm the integrity of the character because, surprise surprise, being pretty doesn’t guarantee anything. JMS’ MJ was trapped in a failing Hollywood career and towards the end of his run was considering becoming a drama teacher, which isn’t a bad job but is hardly the ideal of glamorous-as-hell. (As an aside: JMS’ idea that Peter should be a high school science teacher was brilliant, the single best thing he contributed to Spider-Man, and Marvel shouldn’t have walked away from it because having underappreciated overworked Spider-Man be, in civilian life, in the most underappreciated overworked job there is? That’s just perfect.)
True story: the most beautiful woman I have ever seen, and I don’t mean “to me personally in a loving kind of way” but rather “objectively, we are talking Botticelli’s Venus times a kajillion,” worked in a video store. I mean, this woman was stunning, literally jaw-droppingly beautiful, and I remember this not just because she was amazing looking but because one time, when I was renting a movie3 this schlub in front of me asked her why she wasn’t a model and she shrugged and said “I tried, but it’s all who you know.” Which isn’t surprising because that is how everything works.4
And there’s no reason it shouldn’t work for MJ as well. Plenty of physically beautiful people fail because that is how life happens; only a small subset of people get to be glamorous and everybody else gets shut out, even if they are a perfect 10. Hell, if the whole Shailene Woodley flap teaches us anything it is that people will discount astounding prettiness for whatever reason they choose.
- Still not sure what all of this says about Kirsten Dunst. [↩]
- This sentence was originally going to be “a Superman movie where Superman doesn’t fly” but then I realized that any discussion of Superman movies, by law, now requires people who hated Man of Steel to come out and say that they hated Man of Steel. [↩]
- FOR THE KIDS: there used to be stores where you would rent movies for money, like, you would go walk to the store and physically borrow a movie from them. [↩]
- Or maybe she was bullshitting this guy to get him off her back, that’s possible too, because being beautiful doesn’t mean you have to live a life specifically designed for beautiful people. [↩]
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Spider Man as high school teacher could be the opposite of Breaking Bad. “You could have all the power and none of the responsibility!” would be his constant temptation (and of course, he has his secret life being a spider guy). But he’s also there, KNOWING that he has the brains and the connections and the power to make like Superior Ock and take over the whatever, but he makes the CHOICE to teach, to mentor, to be Uncle Ben all over again. If Spider Man has an “ending” I would like that to be it.
Peter Parker as science teacher also worked because it didn’t rule out the occasional photography for the Bugle to supplement that teacher income. Imagine if he has to get good pictures of Spider-Man not just to pay his own rent, but to let him afford the school supplies he needs to actually teach his class.
As for Mary Jane, yes. I mean, one of her defining moments is after Peter tries to drive her off in the wake of Gwen’s death, she opens the door…and then shuts it and stays with him. She has every right to leave after what he just said to her, but she’s not a frail flower. She can handle that, and knows it’s not really about her, it’s about losing Gwen.
as if somehow “hot wife” means “everything right in the world”
I think Jimmy Soul had something to say about this.
Other reasons beautiful women aren’t models:
1. It’s hard.
2. It’s precarious.
3. You have to adhere to strict body standards, height and weight. Even if you’re rail thin now, you have to be rail thin every day. No fluctuations, no muscle gain that can increase the thickness of your thighs. Is this not obvious enough for some people?
4. Everyday standards of beauty, even great beauty, don’t necessarily apply in the high-end fashion industry. It isn’t just enough to be beautiful — you have to appeal to an agency’s search for a particular look. Maybe you’re just sort of generically beautiful, even generically stunning. Or maybe your brand of stunningly distinctive beautiful just isn’t the trend right now. A beautiful face can be a trend! That’s a thing!
I never thought the MJ as model thing worked — possibly because I don’t have enough respect for models (because I am a bad person), and possibly because the writers never seemed to have enough respect for models. It always seems like a bit of ridiculous fairy tale glamour pushed into Spider-man stories where it doesn’t belong.
MJ is Spider-man’s Lois Lane. Not just there to provide support, but awesome in her own right. She should be less super than LL (no Pulitzers), and it’s fine if her career completely eclipses Peter’s (probably should, since he is slipping out all the time to do spidery things).
Model is a hard sell (I’m not the only bad person who discounts the work and effort they put in). Perhaps something where her attractiveness works against her, since people all too often assume attractive means dumb.
So, keep the actress and change the career.
Also, Shailene Woodley is gorgeous. What is wrong with people if they think she isn’t hot enough? I mean, I’m a bad person, but wow, those people are terrible.
Really glad this wasn’t just a “get a life nerd Shailene Woodley looks fine” piece [which really, there are enough of] but also explored the problems with reducing Mary Jane to merely being hot.
It also strikes me as strange that there was never any huge fuss [as far as I can remember, but it was a long time ago] about Kristen Dunst as MJ since, as far as can tell from media attention, etc., she doesn’t count among the numerous women this culture deems “smoking hot.”
Maybe the internet wasn’t as big back then, I mean it was 2002 before the reddits and the tumblr and what have you.
I agree 100% with everything in this post.
On the other hand…
It is definitely true that when Mary Jane was first introduced, her defining character trait was “Va-Va-Voom”, used for comic effect given the months-long setup of “Peter doesn’t want to meet his aunt’s friend’s niece because she’s probably going to be a drag”. That first, iconic reaction shot where Peter opens the door and she drops the “Face it, Tiger” line only works if he thinks she’s super hot, and if she knows that he thinks she’s super hot.
All of the more significant character-building came later. At this point in time it’s definitely true that toughness is a more important character trait for MJ than hotness. But I don’t think that was true when the character was introduced, which may be what people are reacting to.
This is kind of a really great anti-MJ argument if you buy into “being Spider-Man is suffering” angle. MJ being there and being tough and putting up with Peter’s mood swings and being committed enough to a dude who gave her a Van Dyne Special that sent her flying across a room and wrecked the wall while she was pregnant to stick around goes a long way.
I always liked when MJ was basically written as a cop’s wife – tough as nails, but secretly terrified that one night Peter was going to go out and come back dead.
I guess I always thought of PP’s relationship with MJ going along the following progression :
(1) Aunt May setting me up? She must be a drag!
(2) My god! She’s beautiful!
(3) She has been there for me through thick and then. She has substance!
(4) She knows my secret ID! No wonder she doesn’t love me – she knows I’ve been lying to her!
(5) After all these tribulations, I realise she is the only one for me.
MJ’s beauty is an aspect of her character – just like the tough background, the red hair, etc etc.
I always loved Gerry Conway’s one-shot Parallel Lives, which portrayed many of the early incidents of their relationship from MJ’s point of view.
I always hate the “Spider-Man shouldn’t be maried because he should have a hard life” thing. Partly because Mary Jane ALSO had a hard life! All that stuff with her parents and her work and everything – she overcame it, and she and Peter found each other. There’s a scene in some mid-70s “origin of Mary Jane” issue where she’s crying and some of her friends ask if she’s all right, and she lights up a smile and says “Of course! What could be wrong with me?” She puts on a mask to hide the pain in her life and be a happy, confident person. Who better for Spider-Man? Peter and Mary Jane can be themselves around one another, and it makes them both better characters.
And another thing – Superman’s been married since I was a kid. Spider-Man’s been married for nearly as long as I’ve been alive. These marriages are an integral part of their characters for me, and any time some editor destroys them because that’s not who the character is to *them*, I just want to kick them in the teeth.
Shailene is very pretty, my only complaint would be that she looks so young that having her play a character I grew up reading makes me feel old. But that’s not really a reason to keep her from the part.
I have heard people say Kirsten Dunst was not hot enough to play Mary Jane; conversely Hugh Jackman is considered too tall and handsome to be Wolverine by a few friends of mine. Personally I care more about their performances than just identically matching the drawing on the page.
I really like this post and the whole thread, very good points all around.
Preach, brother.
I never understood why people think being married to a sexy woman means somehow you’re not struggling in life: that after getting yelled at by Jonah, shot at by cops, stomped by a guy in Rhino armor, all because you still feel guilty about letting your best uncle get killed, going home to hot awesome sex with Mary Jane Watson made up for all of that. It doesn’t. It was GOOD that Peter had Mary Jane to go home to for hot awesome sex, but it didn’t resolve all those problems.
They were in love. Love matters in this day and age.
As supporting characters go, MJ is on a level with Lois Lane and Alfred Pennyworth in terms of sheer awesome and importance to the mythoi of their respective franchises. I cannot understand why so many people just do not get this.
I’m pretty sure these must be the same nerds who referred to Kirsten Dunst as “Ol’ Snaggletooth.”
God knows who *would* qualify as “hot enough.”
Wouldn’t go that far, but Emma Stone is the most perfect person in the world you could possibly cast as Mary Jane. and any actress cast as Mary Jane is in the unenviable position of portraying a character who is more charming and lovable (as a character) than Emma Stone as Gwen Stacy (and for all the movies’ problems, stone did pull of a likable Gwen Stacy). Not to say I haven’t like Shailene in the Descendents. Just saying the reboot has kind of shot itself in the foot in trying to find an actress able to be more perfect for peter parker than Gwen Stacy as portrayed by Emma Stone.
The reality is, I’m an adult, and Gwen Stacy died before I was born. upon reading the older comics, I just see the same obvious fact that MJ is the one, and a flighty blonde that would never stick around for Peter ESPECIALLY if she were to ever find out that he was Spider-Man.
And it always bugs the hell out of me that Spider-man can’t be married to MJ because she’s an actress/model. Why can’t we all just admit that it was a terrible 90s idea that needs to just be buried and forgotten? It’s like saying Reed Richards and Sue Storm can’t be married because she ran around outside in a goofy bikini in that decade.
The only reason Emma stone works in the Amazing Spider-man is because they stapled MJ’s backstory onto her.
Also Kristen Dunst wasn’t that great. Which is disappointing, because I always had a crush on her since way back.
But yeah, comic nerds being depressingly comic nerds. I’m more pissed off that there is neither a Spider-Man movie that is actually good, and the entire fact that this whole endeavor exists just to keep Spider-Man out of the Avengers movies.
“I never understood why people think being married to a sexy woman means somehow you’re not struggling in life.”
This. And also, being married is work. You have to work to stay together, to support each other. It’s rewarding work, but it’s still work. It’s still an act of moral fortitude (especially when he has people like Black Cat throwing herself at him) that Peter goes home and chooses to work at his relationship with MJ. And he does it because he recognizes that the work is worth the reward. He could take the easy way out -let’s face it, Spider Man probably has groupies.
“-let’s face it, Spider Man probably has groupies. ”
Bendis, is that you?
As far as I’m concerned, the only way in which “Peter Parker shouldn’t be married to a super-model” works as a complaint is when you parse it as “Peter Parker shouldn’t be rich, or even remotely financially secure. Nor should he [or MJ] be foolish enough to catastrophically mismanage their savings. So keep them both away from money spigots like a successful modelling or acting career [or horizon labs, for that matter].
Also, the whole Spider-Man as hard-luck-hero thing hasn’t really been true since Steve Ditko left the book. When John Romita started the book Peter Parker gained about thirty pounds of muscle, lost his glasses and became a chick magnet.
My one point of disagreement: Peter Parker as science teacher might work on an emotional level, but on a practical level it sucks for a writer who has to constantly explain why Peter Parker can miss a few days of school when the latest Avengers crisis happens on a Tuesday, and not get into any trouble for it. It’s the same reason that Clark Kent made a better newspaper reporter than a TV reporter, because it’s easier to maintain a secret identity without cameras following you around. 🙂
To echo a bit of Elijah Fry’s post, my only problem with the casting is that they got the perfect Mary Jane to play Gwen and a very good Gwen-candidate to play MJ.
And blah blah Woodley’s gorgeous blah
…but on a practical level it sucks for a writer who has to constantly explain why Peter Parker can miss a few days of school when the latest Avengers crisis happens on a Tuesday, and not get into any trouble for it
I dunno. Matt Striker got away with skipping class to go wrestle for long enough – and Peter has the triple advantages of a) having done this since he was 15, b) wearing a mask when heroing it up and c) probably looking like crap when he comes back and says he was ill.
Sure, but there’s a difference between knowing that you have a match coming up next Wednesday and using one of your sick days, and having a supervillain threaten the mayor in the midst of a school day. Spidey could only run out on so many classes feigning sudden illness before it became an issue.
“any actress cast as Mary Jane is in the unenviable position of portraying a character who is more charming and lovable (as a character) than Emma Stone as Gwen Stacy”
Two words: Anna Kendrick.
I like it, Tim O’Neil.
And here I thought it was okay to dislike Shailene Woodley as MJ because she’s a shitty actress.
Thank you John Seavey! Parker as a teacher was a terrible idea.
@John Seavey: Just make him a substitute then. Part time teacher, part time superhero, part time photographer.
Full-time ladies man, if he’s not married at the time.
My view on Mary Jane has always been (and I’m an ole lady so always means almost as long as she’s been around), some girls are born with it, but she was all Maybelline. So the very idea that someone could be considered not hawt enough is laughable to me.
That said, she is awesome and needs an awesome actress and Anna Kendrick is perfect for the role.So sadly, no matter who they cast she will be tarred in my mind as, “not Anna Kendrick.”
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