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Robert Eddleman said on April 21st, 2010 at 9:25 am

Now I want some “Why I Should Write Aquaman” posts.

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equinox216 said on April 21st, 2010 at 9:36 am

At this point J’onn has got to be like the middle-aged lady who everyone heard likes giraffes, so every time any celebration or holiday comes up her coworkers and relatives give her stuffed giraffes or porcelain giraffes or potholders with giraffes crocheted on them or refrigerator magnets of giraffes doing zany things. Then one day she’s hospitalized and when someone goes to her house to get some of her personal effects they discover boxes and boxes of still-packed giraffe goods, because she’s an OCD hoarder and all these people have been doing this whole time is inadvertently exacerbating her mental illness and driving her further and further down a spiral of depression and despair.

Except in this case everyone KNOWS that J’onn was once literally addicted to Oreos, and they STILL keep giving him Oreos. Nobody ever walks up to Roy and goes “Hey there, One-Armed Bandit! Got any Tylenol-III? Better take care of those remaining veins!”, because somehow that would be crass, but J’onn’s crippling food addiction? That’s fair game? Really? Earthlings are dicks.

court intrigue as superheroics is something nobody else (other than Namor) can really pull off.

I wasn’t going to nitpick, but that list seems like it should include Black Panther, Dr. Doom, and Black Bolt/the Inhumans. Especially given the number of pages in recent history dedicated to exactly this.

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malakim2099 said on April 21st, 2010 at 9:42 am

Yeah. After reading it… I didn’t think it was horrible in the Cry for Justice sense, but it was just bleh.

And Earthlings ARE dicks. It’s a common theme.

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Matthew Johnson said on April 21st, 2010 at 10:03 am

@equinox: Actually, the “addicted to Oreos” story was explained away in the very same issue in which it was told, so if it’s since become canon it’s only because, as usual, DC editorial is too dumb to listen to John Ostrander.

So far as Hawk is concerned, it’s an established rule in serial fiction that if you have ever been a good guy you never, ever, ever lose your claim on that status, no matter how many times you turn evil, screw over your friends “for the greater good,” get possessed/mind controlled/replaced etc. Otherwise they’d never have let Data pilot the Enterprise after, I don’t know, the third or fourth time he was hacked (though the fact that Starfleet allowed an android whose origin and workings they knew nothing about to have a position of key importance on their flagship suggests a certain lack of due diligence to begin with.)

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Tales to Enrage said on April 21st, 2010 at 10:25 am

You know what would be a much better display of friendship with J’onn? Homemade cookies. Of different kinds.

Homemade food in general would be better than just cookies, yes, but cookies are fairly simple to make.

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I lack the appropriate link, but J’onn recently was featured in tiny sculpted form as a Heroclix figure, sitting proudly upon a throne made entirely of Oreos.

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Let’s not forget that J’onn is living on Mars, and the nearest source of Oreos is a long way away, and I’m pretty sure the Oreos are much appreciated.

I’m a Canadian living in Britain, and when anyone is coming to visit me, you better believe that they get a list of crap to buy and bring over that isn’t otherwise available, even in London. So you come and visit me, you better bring Stove Top Stuffing, and the wife wants her Peanut Butter Oreos. So just from my situation, I would guess that until Mars gets a Target, the Oreos are going to be pretty well appreciated.

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I mean, J’onn can just go to a supermarket if he wants some cookies.

I don’t think even Costco/generic mass grocery chain carries Oreos by the crate, which is the joke. Plus it’s Guy Gardner giving the gift. I’m sure you can imagine him discussing this with Ice, and saying that he’ll provide the Chocos as a gag gift, while also giving another gift with Ice that’s a bit more personal.

I’ve actually liked the MM writing in BN8/BD0, because it feels like there’s a bit of underlying menace to his comments. J’onn knows that something is wrong with him, and that everybody else is clueless about it, and that he’s not going to tell them.

As for Aquaman, I thought the point was that he got over his Manta issues a while ago for the most part (as much as one can reasonably expect.) On the flip side, Mera probably still should have Manta issues. (Also, Johns has specifically mentioned Manta as a villain he’s going to be doing stuff with in interviews.)

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I think Smith did a decent job showing how much Aquaman fucking hates Black Manta and wants him dead in their cameo in “Quiver”. But seriously Black Manta should be constantly dodging Atlantean assassin squads and shit…

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I shall refer you to my favorite comic in an attempt to lighten your spirits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just'a_Lotta_Animals

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Do you ever get over your “issues” as a result of some guy horribly murdering your only child? Because Aquaman does not strike me as the kind of person who would seek therapy.

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Do you ever get over your “issues” as a result of some guy horribly murdering your only child?

I mean, there are real life examples of people forgiving the murderer of their child and preferring him to have life imprisonment to the death penalty.

I assume Aquaman still hates Black Manta. But that’s because Black Manta is an unrepentant dick of a supervillain.

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“I lack the appropriate link, but J’onn recently was featured in tiny sculpted form as a Heroclix figure, sitting proudly upon a throne made entirely of Oreos.”And the names of his powers on the card detailing them all refer to him fiending for them.

http://www.heroclix.com/gallery – click on the first entry for Martian Manhunter in the Brave and the Bold gallery, and you can see J’onn sitting on his throne of Oreos Chocos.

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LightlyFrosted said on April 21st, 2010 at 12:46 pm

Someone beat me to the ‘Aquaman trying to kill Black Manta in the Kevin Smith ‘Quiver’ storyline’ thing, so I’ll just add this; the reason he DIDN’T kill Black Manta was not because he couldn’t, but because Green Arrow stopped him. It’s quite possible Arthur will never ‘get over’ Black Manta horribly murdering his only child, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he is going to murder him back.

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“(seriously, there is no comics character I hate as much as Hal Jordan, with the possible exception of Beast Boy. Fuck Beast Boy).”

Wait a minute? Are you seriously suggesting that Hal Jordan and Beast Boy would both be zeroes on the Rex-tMFWD scale? They’re worse than Tyr and The Director? Or is your personal hatred separate from the characters inherent comparability to Rex (tMFWD)?

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How do you feel about Johns’ recent work with Francis Manapul, MGK?

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Aquaman *did* kill Black Manta. As in, they fought to the death, Manta stabbed his ass, but Arthur got sweet revenge by getting fish to cut his oxygen lines, and then Manta bit it. In like 1991. Then they brought him back as an anthropomorphic manta, and then promptly forgot about that because it was stupid.

I like Aquaman sans-beard and with-orange-shirt, but I’m not exactly sold on him reuniting with Mera or, you know, being afraid of the fucking water.

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And in a fit of horrible timing, his chance to do a TV movie came at the depth of his cookie addiction

http://www.headinjurytheater.com/Entertainment/jla%20fat%20martian.jpg

Paunch pic linked from
http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article24.htm

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Mary Warner said on April 21st, 2010 at 2:47 pm

Namor has always been an unlikeable dickhead. The good writers know this and build their stories upon this fact.

Sorry. I just don’t know DC well enough anymore to comment on your important points.

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DistantFred said on April 21st, 2010 at 3:12 pm

I’m kinda disappointed that Aquaman no longer has a squid glued to his face; The Sword of Atlantis series was the first time I was ever interested in Aquaman (because frankly, the idea of an aquatic John Carter seems a bit more novel than ‘somewhat less dickish blond Namor’).

And frankly, the way he died in that series made it seem like Tad Williams was building to something with it, that got cut short when the series got cancelled.

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Brian T. said on April 21st, 2010 at 3:34 pm

I love Beast Boy (although I wish we could go back to calling him Changeling, which is a far less dorky name). Otherwise, I can dig what you’re saying in this review.

Trying to “redeem” Hawk seems really weird to me. Especially since it’s being done by the same guy who had Atom-Smasher and Metron murder the dude by somehow forcing him to die in a plane crash in one of my least favorite JSA arcs. Which was both revenge for Extant killing my three favorite JSA members (Dr. Fate I, Dr. Mid-Nite I and Hourman I) in Zero Hour and a way for Johns to use a comic to write about his feelings about his dead sister who was the inspiration for my least favorite JSA member Stargirl.

So… Did Johns finally get over whatever made him go to great, convoluted lengths to kill off the dude when he was still Extant? Did he finally realize that the female Hawk he introduced in Teen Titans with a dumb retcon was a bad idea? Was he reading old Hawk and Dove comics and feeling nostalgic? Was that supposed to be “edgy” somehow?

No matter what his reason turns out to be, it’s pretty dumb to try to “redeem” a guy who is just going to remind people that he used to be Monarch and then he became Extant and killed three of DC’s coolest Golden Age characters for stupid editorial reasons.

Johns loves “redeeming” superheroes who went evil. Heck, he had several members of the JSA go “temporarily insane” or get mind controlled or something just so he could “redeem” them too. He practically created his own drinking game by the time he “redeemed” Hal Jordan. But seriously? Hawk?

I think the kid needs an intervention. Or at least a tough editor who can smack him on the nose with a rolled up newspaper when he comes up with something that lame.

On the other hand, if Hawk is just going to wind up turning evil again… that will be really stupid too because anybody with half a brain will be expecting that.

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In defense of the Oreos bit:

One, there’s the whole “Mars is a long way from the supermarket” issue.

Two: it’s not “all his friends”: it’s GUY. And that’s such a Guy Gardner thing to do, on so many levels.

“I’m your low-brow friend who gets you low-brow gifts.”

“Haw haw haw, the Dignified Philosopher likes these store-bought cookies.”

“Hey, under all the gag-gift pretense, this is really a thoughtful present, not just because you like them, but because they come along with good memories of our time in the JLI, when we were pretty much a family, even if we were a dysfunctional one, and I’d never ever ever say this out loud, because, you know, I’m GUY GARDNER, but you really don’t need to be a telepath to figure it out.”

And I’m sure Hal is just completely baffled, thinking, “Wait, what, cookies?”

Because, you know, he’s HAL JORDAN. He doesn’t DO nuance, and probably doesn’t think Guy can even SPELL it.

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Brian T. said on April 21st, 2010 at 3:47 pm

I forgot something I wanted to throw into my rant.

Considering how messed up Hawk is as a character at this point, about the only reason I can see to bring him back is that it would be one more small step in Geoff Johns’ ongoing plan to pretend like DC didn’t publish any comics except for Superboy between Crisis on Infinite Earths and whenever he started writing Stars and S.T.R.I.P.E.

See also: Bringing back the original Professor Zoom for no particular reason and bringing back the original Captain Boomerang.

I like the first Captain Boomerang even though I can’t really explain why, so Johns finally managed to pander to me for once instead of killing off another one of my favorite characters. But how does that make sense as anything other than Eighties nostalgia?

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Do we even know if Hawk is going to be a big part of the Brightest Day series? Because I got the impression he was going to be used over in Birds of Prey meaning Gail Simone will be writing him rather than Johns and if she can take Bane and turn him into an interesting character, I’m sure she can at least do a decent job with Hawk.

And I’m with YOS on the cookie-thing.

And on a side-note, while I didn’t see the need for MM to go back to his old-style costume (yes, I’m one of the few who dug the post-52 updated look) I am glad he is wearing pants this time around.

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Allegretto said on April 21st, 2010 at 6:57 pm

Ahem,

Brightest Day was Meh.

Guy Gardner is Awesome.

Johns’ Jordan should die in a butt.

Thank you very much.

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DistantFred said on April 21st, 2010 at 7:07 pm

The best part of bringing Hawk back is that they can have TWO characters angsting about being Monarch at the same time! It seems to be the main thing they’re doing with Captain Atom, too.

gnosis: Bringing back the older look was a good thing, if for no other reason that it restored the collar to his cape, which is absolutely VITAL to the makeup of his silhouette. J’onn J’ones without that collar is like Batman without the ears: It just doesn’t work.

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MGK, I love Aquaman, but I think it’s going to be hard for most people to accept brooding Aquaman post-Brave and the Bold. I don’t know, I wish they had gone with fun, bombastic Aquaman (with beard!), and then when Black Manta’s around he turns immediately into Wrath of God Aquaman.

I like Max Lord’s return, because hey, they already screwed up the character, so they might as well keep going with it. Max does make a dangerous villain. Curious, though, how his immediate resurrection makes it seem like the Wonder Woman execution of Max was just thrown in there to hit a plot point on the way to the big event. Hmm, that sounds familiar…It might just be the same reason that Max turned evil in the first place!

The LEAST that the DC heroes could do is give J’onn some Double-Stuffed Chocos.

And you know what would’ve been a better way to get Green Arrow to the outlaw in Star City with a giant Sherwood Forest in the middle? POISON IVY. Anyone remember that GA/Batman team-up by Denny O’Neill from way back, Poison Tomorrow (I think)? Poison Ivy could be a great Green Arrow antagonist. Why not just have her grow the big forest in the middle of Star City? You could even tie GA’s outlaw status into the act (maybe he accidentally facilitated it, and everyone thinks he’s in on it. I don’t know, I’m just trying to find a better way to this semi-interesting turn of events).

Hal Jordan should die in a swamp. A yellow swamp.

I don’t mind Beast Boy, I really don’t. But you know what still makes me laugh? When Johns wrote a Beast Boy series, Gar got upstaged by Flamebird. The Bette Kane Flamebird! How awesome is that? It’s like back when Johns was sane, he realized, “Holy crap, I have to write this douche? Let’s bring in an awesome character no one knows to pull a Mercutio on this stupid book.” Imagine if Johns still used his Obscurity Powers for good?

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Christian said on April 21st, 2010 at 8:09 pm

“You could even tie GA’s outlaw status into the act (maybe he accidentally facilitated it, and everyone thinks he’s in on it. I don’t know, I’m just trying to find a better way to this semi-interesting turn of events).”

I don’t follow comics, really, but is Green Arrow still a lefty/liberal? Because he could have the sort of relationship to Poison Ivy that normal environmentalists have to Earth Liberation Front/Sea Shepherd/PETA people. That whole “I’m on your side, but you’re being a dick and you’re giving us a bad name’ thing
only with superpowers
(not that the Sea Shepherd’s Batboat wasn’t cool)

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Yeah, GA’s still liberal, mostly thanks to Judd Winick having written him consistently for the past however many years. I like that idea, because it actually makes GA look like the rational one in the room. And it just furthers my belief that Poison Ivy would be a totally rad GA villain.

Did you miss Cry for Justice? I hope you did. But we actually get Ollie saying something along the lines of “Remember when I became a liberal?” Oh James Robinson, your characters are so NATURAL.

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Master Mahan said on April 21st, 2010 at 10:41 pm

It just makes J’onn’s friends seem like assholes who don’t care about him enough to know him better than “he likes cookies”; it rings false.

I’d say it rings pretty true, actually. Jordan and Gardner are both pretty big assholes. The only difference is that Hal gets worshiped for it, whereas people react to Guy realistically.

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Lister Sage said on April 22nd, 2010 at 2:26 am

Joel: “hard for most people to accept brooding Aquaman post-Brave and the Bold.”

I’m one of those “Aquaman = blonde Namor” people and I have to say: I love Brave and the Bold Aquaman. There isn’t a character in comics that I can think of off the top of my head who is in the hero business because they love the adventure. Brooding Aquaman is the same grimdark bullshit that so many heroes tread these days. Brooding is Batman’s schtick and no one tops Batman for brooding. So lets come up with a different character aspect for Aquaman, we’re full of grimdark here.

“Oh James Robinson, your characters are so NATURAL.”

My Lord! My sarcasm detetor has gone off the scale.

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It’s kind of refreshing to see how many people beat me to the point of noting what a dick move it is to bring your addict friend a crate of their particular poison.

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I still want to someday write a comic where it’s revealed that neither Hawk nor Captain Atom was ever Monarch; it was the Martian Manhunter, using telepathy and shapeshifting to impersonate them. :)

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Brad Reed said on April 22nd, 2010 at 9:24 am

The “J’onn loves Oreos” is matched by the “Green Arrow loves chili” bit. (The “Superman loves beef bourguignon” bit hasn’t caught on as much.)

Bad writers love trivial factoids for their characters. “My two-fisted detective loves ragtime piano and baseball cards! It gives him depth! It makes him realistic and relatable! He’s a rounded character!”

-sigh-

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this whole “Deadman as Life-Man!” thing

I haven’t been keeping up. How does this translate to more than “Reasonably fit trapeze artist”?

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IamAndrew said on April 22nd, 2010 at 12:37 pm

this whole “Deadman as Life-Man!” thing

I haven’t been keeping up. How does this translate to more than “Reasonably fit trapeze artist”?

He still has a “white lantern” ring on his finger and any time he touches a dead bird, the bird re-animates (Admittedly this may happen on more than a dead bird).

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DistantFred said on April 22nd, 2010 at 1:13 pm

Lister Sage: Hercules. Marvel’s Hercules is a superhero because running around in a skirt beating people and/or things up is fun.

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DistantFred: Do you think the skirt makes it more fun?

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Aisling: the skirt makes it breezy.

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Sofa King said on April 22nd, 2010 at 5:21 pm

Re: Poison Ivy vs. GA. GREAT IDEA. I never understood why she was a Bat-baddy anyway.

Aquaman shouldn’t ever forgive Black Manta, and he should always be willing to kill him. 1) Manta killed his kid. 2) He killed the heir to his kingdom, so it puts his kingship in question and makes him look weak if he doesn’t do it 3) Who’s gonna tell him no? Angsty McRichboy? Farmer Alien? I’m tired of WW being the only practical one of the JLA. 4) The Atlanteans are a tough, ruthless people, and if Arthur wants to stay kill he better show his chops.

And yes on MM’s pants.

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I think you could do court intrigue with Thor. They could mix it up a bit and not always have it be Loki manipulating people.

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Badficwriter said on April 22nd, 2010 at 11:14 pm

I’m gonna repeat the thing no one is listening to..the addiction story was a JOKE and immediately recognized as such after J’onn played his little prank on Kyle Raynor. It. Never. Happened.

And while I’m talking about John Ostrander stories no one remembers…He also wrote a story where Hal Jordan, with the power of the Spectre, recreates J’onn’s pyramid home on Earth as a gift to cheer up J’onn. At this time, I think Jordan was under a curse to not be recognized or something. When J’onn died, I’m pretty sure the JLA picked the whole thing up and moved it to Mars to be a tomb.

Hal’s offhand remark about ‘nice place’ was a reference to that. It’s an open question whether he or J’onn actually remembers he’s the one who recreated it, rather than the Spectre.

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Jason Barnett said on April 22nd, 2010 at 11:46 pm

If you’re going to hang around and chat with someone and you bring food shouldn’t it be a food you know that person likes?

Hal’s great.

Maybe Johns feels like resurrecting Hawk as Hawk instead of Monarch or Extant he can create a dividing line between the characters. Let’s face it, the whole thing was the result of editorial stupidity, so tryin to find a way to make Hawk a better villain as opposed to undoing it was dumb.

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Lister: “There isn’t a character in comics that I can think of off the top of my head who is in the hero business because they love the adventure.”

I bring her up all the time, but Bette Kane, the only Flamebird I recognize, is in it for the adventure (and to score with Dick Grayson, but aren’t we all in it for that?). She’s immensely fun, which may be why she’s a footnote, even though Johns likes her.

It strikes me that aside from Hercules and maybe Jaime Reyes (or even Guy Gardner?), there aren’t many heroes who actually enjoy being heroes anymore. Like, that should be key to Superman – sure, there’s the survivor’s guilt and the fear of loss underneath, but he genuinely cares about helping people. The man can do anything he wants, how is that not fun? The Marvels should be idealistic in the same way, too. Booster Gold’s time protector gig is a great hook, but he should get to enjoy it too, as a counterbalance to the frustration of obscurity.

And of course, Aquaman should be OUTRAGEOUS.

I’d even accept heroes who just like the fighting! Wildcat or the Hawks would fit here. I’d rather read about Hawkman loving the thrill of battle than Hawkman enjoying the thrill of unrequited love. Or elaborate scrapbooking, which seems to be his thing now.

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Namor is an unlikeable dickhead. Which is why everyone likes him.
He’s a damn powerfull king of the sea and he’s thoroughly aware of it, and every inch of every naked self oozes Leader. King. Imperius Rex.

Arthur is lol. Sea man.

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why do you hate beast boy?

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Evil Abraham Lincoln said on April 26th, 2010 at 7:58 pm

@Zenrage

Why *don’t* you hate Beast Boy?

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TB Tabby said on April 28th, 2010 at 4:48 am

So Max Lord has made everyone forget what he did during Infinite Crisis. What happens when someone notices Ted Kord is dead and can’t remember how he died, or wonders why the public turned against Wonder Woman, or PICKS UP A BACK ISSUE OF THE DAILY PLANET?!

Not as dumb as One More Day fuckyouquesada, but still dumb.

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“Really, I know there’s a large contingent of people who think Aquaman is just a less interesting version of Namor, but they are wrong: Aquaman is a more relatable version of Namor, who is, let’s be honest, kind of an unlikable dickhead.”

Dead-on, and well-said.

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