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mygif

I have no problem with the JLA coexisting alongside groups the Secret Six and the Suicide Squad since both can realistically be ignored since the first operates on a relatively small scale and the second is a covert group (plus both are technically government sponsored so there’s the red tape issue). The JLA can’t coexist with groups like Stormwatch and Authority because they operate on a HUGE scale and their actions are just about as overt as they get (plus, the distinction between the Authority’s methods and the Crime Syndicate’s are pretty minimal).

And don’t get me started on the modern incarnation of Checkmate. It absolutely doesn’t make sense within the context of the DCU. One of my many problems with the OMAC Project series was that DC was trying WAY too hard to be Marvel in the 90s … complete with Prime Sentinels.

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mygif

But between Infinite Crisis and Generation Lost there was a version of Checkmate that I found worked rather well in the DCU (i.e. Rucka’s series.) Rather than seeking to eliminate all metahumans with an army of OMACs, their job was to monitor meta activities (with UN sactioning) and step in if need be. I could imagine Stormwatch filling a similar role in the rebooted DCU.

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mygif

Wasn’t that the series that took Alan Scott – the guy that the heroes were looking to as a moral compass before Superman came along – and turned him into a spymaster while revealing that everyone from Fire to Snapper freaking Carr was secretly a Checkmate operative?

Yeah, still not buying it. Actually Checkmate is exactly why I’m worried that Martian Manhunter will lose what little bit of his identity he still has when he throws in with Stormwatch.

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mygif

Oh, and I’ve already said that Welcome to Tranquility would be a perfect DC book. It felt more like a DC book than a Wildstorm book when it started anyway.

WildCATs and Gen13 still sort of feel like they’d be better suited to Marvel than any other non-Wildstorm line but I don’t really see any reason why they can’t be retooled to work at DC. It isn’t like either property has a definitive tone/direction that can’t be deviated from. I always thought WildCATs was best when the book was experimenting with its identity and integrating it into the DCU could lead to some great things.

Heck, if they’re taking requests then I’d love for DC to do something with the Intimates (mostly because Teen Titans looks like its going to continue to suck).

The reason everyone keeps coming back to the Authority is that it was essentially the flagship book in the Wildstorm line and is therefore the one people are most likely to demand the return of (and because the new Stormwatch looks like half the Authority with Martian Manhunter added for comprehensible reason)

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mygif

sorry, “NO comprehensible reason”

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mygif

Grifter is in seems to have one of the better creative teams, and his solicit is basically the high concept behind ROM Spaceknight, so at least one of the best parts of WildCats made the jump

“Grifter! Grifter ist verwirrung! Grifter ist tod! Grifter ist verwirrung! Grifter ist chaos! Unt tod! Unt tod! Unt tod! Das ist Grifter!”

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Jason Barnett said on June 25th, 2011 at 7:45 am

guys like Apollo and Midnighter would be supervillains in a universe with Superman

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Juan Arteaga said on June 25th, 2011 at 8:49 am

I like to think that the DCU has room for everything. In fact, that is what I like the most of the DCU and why I personally prefer it over Marvel; because, by the way it was created accidentally by multiple creators without a single vision, they ended up with a wilder, insaner universe.

That being said, I have to agree with MGK that The Authority just doesn’t fit. Fit might not be the right word, but it will have to do. I mean, I don’t think there would be a problem with a team like The Authority existing in the DCU, but not a team with it’s own book. Let me explain

The Authority is a very political and proactive team, that’s their whole thing. The Authority will murder the U.S. president if they don’t like it and take over the country, in fact I believe they have done that. The Authority will kill supervillains without thinking it twice. Forget asking why Superman doesn’t try to stop Midnighter from beheading the dictator of Zimbabwe, better ask why doesn’t the Authority just kill the Joker, Lex Luthor, or any other DCU villain?

The Authority cannot exist in the DCU without trying to change it. The only way it can co-exist with the DCU is if it gets defanged and pussified so much that it is no longer recognizable as The Authority. And I am afraid that’s what is going to happen, that’s why they put Martian Manhunter in the team, to turn them into a team that can’t be recognized as the Authority, that does none of the things that made The Authority a different and fun book. Simple said, The Authority will be the new JL-Elite but with less crappy costumes.

I can imagine a group like the Authority existing in the DCU, but only as the villains in a five issue JLA story.

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AAAAAAAA said on June 25th, 2011 at 9:51 am

I still don’t think Cornell is right for Stormwatch. While I like his stuff a lot (most of the time), and he does tragedy like nobody’s business, I don’t think he’s particularly good at writing ‘edgy’ characters. Which is fine, and probably as much a strength as anything. But it means he’s not really a good fit.

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mygif

@Juan Artega: I disagree. While the political part is important, and has become more important over time, what really sells the Authority (and what an Authority integrated into the DCU should focus on) is the sense of scale. Everything the Authority does is grand. They take R&R amongst schools of thought fishes, they take their children to chase the sunset around the world, and they engage in huge programs to make the world a better place.

That’s why I think the ultraviolence works with the Authority where in other series it seems crass. Everything is bigger with the Authority, so that would naturally include the bad guys and the reaction to the bad guys. Seven people going up against God can’t afford to pull their punches.

I think the definitive moment for the Authority came in Ellis’ third arc. Apollo and the Engineer are on a mission in space and they decide to take a minute and let the Engineer become the first woman on the moon. Just because. And the Engineer says, “Why did we stop coming to a place this beautiful?” That’s the Authority right there: a tribute to the awe and wonder (for good and ill) of a world with superheroes in it. And that’s the part of the book that should be the focus when it’s folded into the DCU.

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mygif

People keep saying “Authority” but the book is titled “Stormwatch.” There is a difference there (and yes, I know that the team so far is made up of mostly Authority characters, but that doesn’t mean they will initially have the same agenda.)

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Brad Ellison said on June 25th, 2011 at 1:38 pm

I think the “people want to see these characters team up” argument doesn’t work for me, when some of the characters involved were created as explicit parodies of other characters involved. It’s already kind of awkward having Superman and Captain Marvel in the same universe; having Apollo and Midnighter, “the World’s Finest Couple,” in the same world as Superman and Batman seems to be pushing that awkwardness into the stratosphere.

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@Juan Arteaga

I actually think you’re making a lot of my points for me. The Authority can’t coexist alongside the JLA without being completely neutered (because they certainly aren’t going to let the JLA be bested by a bunch of knockoffs). … and they already did that story with the Elite.

@ Grazzt

The Ellis run on Authority may have been all about awe but the series soon gave way to shock and awe and eventually just shock. That’s what we tend to associate with these characters. Like others have said, Hawksmoore used to be a pacifist; now not so much.

@Brad Ellison

The team-up thing is an interesting issue. Seeing the JSA drop by Tranquility to visit old friends would be all kinds of awesome. I see a lot of potential for a friendship between Atom and Maul. The stories you could get out of Grifter and Batman might be awesome. On the other hand Planetary/Batman only worked because Ellis was poking fun at the differences between Wildstorm and DC (likewise with the more serious Captain Atom: Armageddon mini) and Majestic’s friendship with Superman was fun mostly because he’s the multiversal equivalent of a foreign buddy who crashes on your couch for a few weeks when he visits the states; take that away and he’s just another Captain Marvel… and DC clearly doesn’t know what to do with the Marvel Family. Plus nothing will convince me that the Authority (and the new Stormwatch looks like the Authority to me) can work in the DCU.

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mygif

I have a weird question:
When did the Vertigo stuff stop being part of the same world as the “mainstream” DCU? Didn’t the Sandman meet Martian Manhunter? Moore’s Swampthing run guest starred Batman, the Justice League and Lex Luthor. Swampthing met John Constantine, and John Constantine had his own stories…so how is John Constantine considered a separate entity from the rest of the world he appeared in? I only ask because this seems to be a prevailing opinion of two or three bloggers i follow, and i have never shared this line of thinking.

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mygif

The Vertigo thing will just cause headaches if you think about it too hard.

Swamp Thing shares his world with both Batman and Hellblazer. Hellblazer stories happen in more or less real time while Batman stories clearly don’t.

Lucifer is a spinoff of Sandman but Sandman is part of the core DCU while Lucifer doesn’t seem to.

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mygif

@comixkid2099: I’m not sure if you can track down an exact date, but Dan DiDio did say in some of his interviews over the years that there was an editorial edict forbidding Vertigo characters from appearing in mainstream DCU books because they didn’t want to create the impression that they were trying to get kids to read “Mature Readers” books.

Obviously, this was reversed by ’52’, or at least diminished, but it was official DC policy for a while.

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mygif

note Static Shock was the name of the cartoon show. The character’s name is just Static.

Other then that I have to say I agree with what you said. The merger of DC and Wildstorms univerese is a good ideal (well it can be but there still room for them to f it up) and the character fit in DCU as much as other DCU character fit in with each other.

Of course you have some peope who due have problems with some elements of the DCU and not the other and so this will just take it further.

I also find it odd that they DC isn’t putting out a Gen13 or Wildcats book (well I guess there’s voodoo)

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@comixkid2099

I think the seperation between Vertigo and main DCU happened around the time they started the Vertigo line.

Books like Sandman, Swamp Thing, Doom Patrol and Animal Man started before vertigo was around and the things you mentioned where done when those books where DCU books and not Vertigo.

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mygif

The Vertigo embargo has weakened considerably recently anyway: Death of The Endless appeared in one of the best stories in the already fantastic Paul Cornell Lex Luthor Action Comics run (and in it’s climax), and even definitively states that she is different from both the Black Racer (a psychopomp, particularly of New Gods and speedsters but potentially anyone) and Nekron (not quite sure what he is, actually); Swamp Thing was resurrected as protector of the Earth in Brightest Day and is currently running amok; and Constantine is back in the mainstream DCU as well due to Swampy’s aforementioned shenanigans, and teaming up with Batman (a team up I have long waited for) and Zatanna (old girlfriend) to find him; and now Shade the Changing Man is back in Flashpoint and will be part of Justice League Dark. Theoretically, the Vertigo stuff and characters have always technically been a part of the DCU, but in practice most of them exist in their own little bubble, to varying degrees (Swampy, Animal Man, The Endless, and Constantine have the strongest ties, while stuff like Kid Eternity is probably apocryphal).

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mygif

I think under the right writer, and I think Cornell is the right writer, Stormwatch could fit into the DC universe. I wouldn’t be surprised if he takes the approach that they would be exactly like the authority if their hands weren’t tied by bureaucratic red tape. Manhunter as a member i think makes perfect sense for his character, he may not agree with their methods or mandate, but since their U.N appointed heros he’ll do his best to curb their darker nature.
Is it just me or does it seem like their would be a lot of story potential with stormwatch clashing wish Maxwell Lord and/or the JLI. I could see Fire and Ice making interesting additions to the Storwatch roster.

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Evil Midnight Lurker said on June 26th, 2011 at 1:33 am

Rbx5: Back when Nekron first appeared in the 80s, I got the impression that he was pretty much just the custodian of a temporary clearing house for recently dead souls. He wasn’t involved in scheduling deaths or judging the dead, just in regulating a holding area between the two.

His attempt to rip the veil between life and death open and to conquer the universe may be seen as a desperate attempt to get out of a meaningless dead-end job. :)

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Juan Arteaga said on June 26th, 2011 at 3:40 am

@Beacon
> “Lucifer is a spinoff of Sandman but Sandman is part of the core DCU while Lucifer doesn’t seem to.”

Lucifer in one issue in the second trade gets to visit the Source from Kirby’s Fourth World. I like to imagine he took pictures of himself there and mailed them to Darkseid just to piss him off.

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mygif

After seeing both sides, I can say that DC is being really stupid regarding this whole thing.

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mygif

WildCATS really doesn’t make much sense without the Daemonites. If I had to guess, they’ll probably show up as supporting cast and a potential spinoff in the Grifter book.

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mygif

I like how Image does it. If they want to have Savage Dragon team up with Invincible, they do it. Otherwise, they stay in their own titles and their continuities don’t affect one another much.

The shared universe is cool when I can see heroes hang out together, but not when there’s a big event every six months and it interrupts a storyline in a title I like. Can you imagine Simonson’s Thor run if it had to stop and pay service to some event every few months? (It did with Mutant Massacre but that’s about it I believe.)

I think if you did that with the Wildstorm books, where Gen13 and Wildcats and Stormwatch basically did their thing and once in a while teamed with Superman or Green Arrow or something, that would be fine. When you treat the universe as one big Justice League that’s what causes problems.

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Marionette said on June 26th, 2011 at 3:35 pm

In my world The Authority was a 12 issue limited series by Warren Ellis and never had any follow ups. I think the upcoming use of the characters will only confirm this.

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mygif

As mentioned above, if you include the WildCATs, you need to include the entire Kherubim / Daemonite conflict, which is yet another group of warring space aliens to write in.

Gen13 works on a smaller scale, but they were Wildstorm’s ‘teen superheroes’ book. Would they fit with the Teen Titans? Plus Gen13 never really lasted long in terms of story and always devolved into what outfit they could squeeze Fairchild into for that issue.

A ‘true’ StormWatch could fit, as could a StormWatch: Team Achilles or a StormWatch: Post-Human Division, but all seem to be stepping on the same areas of the DC universe that other titles are covering.

Merging a universe isn’t necessarily a bad idea, but from what I’ve seen the smaller universe doesn’t take long before it disappears completely (Milestone, Malibu).

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mygif

I like the way Marionette thinks. I have re-read Millar’s Authority and it does not age well at all. Ellis’ Authority was a fantastic, fun ride and Millar just could not match the quality despite having a top tier artist like Quitely helping him.

As for the whole Kheribum/Daemonites thing, it is a valid argument. The DCU has so many aliens in it that it seems a tall order to cram another pair into it. Perhaps make the two races extradimensional instead? Perhaps make the two races more mystical in nature rather than hi-tech? Heck, that could fit well into the Justice League Dark comic if you were dealing with extradimensional magic wars.

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That Guy said on June 27th, 2011 at 12:26 pm

Brad Ellison said “It’s already kind of awkward having Superman and Captain Marvel in the same universe.”

There was a miniseries run called First Thunder. I wish they had just kept up with it from there. Basically, Billy Batson became Captain Marvel in a more modern time period. after he ended up losing a friend to Dr Sivana’s thugs he went on a rampage through Fawcett City, though he could not kill Sivana at the end of it.

Superman finds him and confronts him, learning that Captain Marvel is just a young boy. After giving the Wizard a much needed verbal slapping about, he then finds Billy again and reveals his identity.

The idea of Superman as the mentor of Captain Marvel resonated with me.

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Kristopher A said on June 27th, 2011 at 1:46 pm

Didn’t Daemonites make an appearance in the very old Ion series right after Infinite Crisis? I thought Captain Atom was clearing them out of the Bleed or something, as that’s where they came from.

And gnosis has it right: All this talk about the Authority is great… but it’s completely irrelevant. This isn’t the Authority, but Stormwatch. If Stormwatch starts taking over governments and such, then we can have that discussion. But Cornell’s take seems to be more in-line with an Outsiders/Planetary organization that fights off secret threats and explores the greater history of the DCU. At least, that’s what I took away from his interview.

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mygif

I really don’t mind the Daemonites and the other Wildstorm aliens. Space is a big place so what’s a few more inhabited planets?

RE Stormwatch vs Authority:

Without the characters that went on to form the Authority I’m not sure what Stormwatch has to offer DC anyway.

I suppose Battalion fills a bit of a void in terms of power.

Fuji was cool but kind of one note.

Diva is just a dumb skank version of Black Canary.

Bendix suffers a lot of the same tonal problems as the Authority (though at least no one in the fan community sees him as a hero).

None of the others are even worth remembering.

I don’t care what they call it; the new Stormwatch book looks like the Authority to me.

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mygif

HYPERTIME!

…*crickets chirping*…

What? What I say?

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Kristopher A said on June 27th, 2011 at 6:31 pm

The difference between Stormwatch and Authority is less the characters and more the tone. The book, despite having characters who moved on to the Authority, doesn’t seem to pretend that it’s going to have the same objective or tone the Authority did. Again, it feels more like this is going to be a Planetary/Secret History/Secret Enemy type thing for the DCU, not a “Let’s change the world” thing.

The biggest problem I have is where this fits into DC’s little black-ops world: Is this a UN-sponsored Stormwatch, or is this sort of a JLA analog to Checkmate? We already have a UN-sponsored team with JLI, so where does this lie?

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piranhtachew said on July 6th, 2011 at 10:52 pm

Hopes Aunt Susan had been dating at least a cool dog like Snoopy – Rex might be too much to hope for 😐 .

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