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mygif

Here’s the reason I roll my eyes at this kind of Nice Guy: he thinks I and pretty much every other woman is a bitch and a cunt and a slut without even getting to know us first. I don’t owe him anything, and he deserves to be mocked.

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mygif

sure is Hal Jordan in here.

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mygif

Wow. what a retard.

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Pantsless Pete said on January 14th, 2012 at 2:28 am

Nice Guyism is about pretending being neurotic, creepy and passive aggressive are virtues. The whole asshole thing is about guys who have enough self-confidence not to be creepy, neurotic and passive agressive. Traits women tend to find unattractive for some reason.

There is also something to be said for realising that vaginas are not filled with rainbows and unicorns. There are people attached to them, not narratives and maybe if you’re going to write your own special romantic story there should at least be some effort to include the other person.

That said, I also think the whole ‘Only Girl In The Room’-ism of nerd girl culture kind of contributes to this whole dynamic as well.

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mygif

For example, if you are “stalked” by a guy who wants a relationship with you, you not always give him clear signals that you will never engage in such things with him

Haha what’s the bet this guy has a current restraining order out against him.

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mygif

And the NPD and Psychopathic Charm I’m talking about is called “Glibness” or “Superficial Charm”. Look it up.
And by the way, if there’s no backup for my claim (for which I’m sure there is at least studies on, Hervey Cleckler’s and Robert Hare’s at the very least) then there is certainly absolutely none for yours, that simply decides they should all be “assholes” based on your own self-righteousness.

You’re right! It was really silly of me to make a wild claim based on absolutely no evidence at all other than my own gut feelings and then pretend it was backed up by an actual study.

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Anticorium said on January 14th, 2012 at 1:54 pm

Speak for yourself, Danny. I for one am convinced. Nice Guys are merely stating the only logical response to the fact that there is no visible difference between a willingness to be assertive and risk rejection and psychopathic mental illness.

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highlyverbal said on January 14th, 2012 at 2:34 pm

I googled Cleckley & Hare; and both of them have studies and techniques about the detection of sociopathy and how sociopaths can function successfully in general, but there were no studies about the romantic exploits of sociopaths.

As requested, I also looked up “Superficial Charm” and while the vague-sounding “improved romantic opportunities” appears on the laundry list of possible positive outcomes, again no studies on that seem to exist.

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mygif

After all, narcissistic personality disorders and psychopaths tend to get laid a lot, and that is statistical fact.

Well, I guess it’s time to work on my narcissism and psychosis.

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mygif

“Why would you choose to pile on to any of them?”

Because bullying is fun with a crowd. Also having a abstraction of a person instead of a real one makes things easier.

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mygif

My question in all this is why everyone assumes it’s always about sex. There are plenty of guys who are interested in love. That still doesn’t mean the Nice Guy thing works, but the idea of one person trying to win or earn another’s love should at least seem a little less creepy or whatever. Perhaps it doesn’t, because I guess there are enough people so entrenched in hookup culture that sex is the goal rather than the byproduct of a healthy, loving relationship, but to me, that must count for something.

Also, I find it fascinating that many people are morally offended at the notion that someone might say, “Hey, I don’t agree with this person, but perhaps we should treat men who don’t know how to talk to women like they’re troubled human beings instead of Nazi rapist cannibals.” And that the response, rather than to address this argument, is to hack at the minutiae or offer smug, self-evident dismissals.

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mygif

“Nice Guys are merely stating the only logical response to the fact that there is no visible difference between a willingness to be assertive and risk rejection and psychopathic mental illness.”

Man, if so-called Nice Guys can’t see any difference between having the gumption to risk rejection and just ask someone out rather than passively hinting at it and “psychopathic mental illness,” that says more about Nice Guys then it does anything else.

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mygif

What a complete monster that poster is! I mean, can anyone even imagine? Being young and confused about the dating game and horny? He sounds like he has a serious mental condition or psychosis. Someone should hunt him down, tranquilize him, and lock him up.

I mean, just the very idea!

/grabs smelling salts
/collapse on fainting couch

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mygif

>stop assuming that women owe you sex

I think the lot of you are confusing “thinking you are owed sex” and “fucking WANTING SEX like a normal goddamn human being”.

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mygif

What is up with all the self-righteousness in here?

It rhymes with “A big part of MGK’s audience comes from Scans_Daily.”

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Anticorium said on January 15th, 2012 at 1:21 am

My question in all this is why everyone assumes it’s always about sex.

Wellllllllll…

I mean, how can they NOT know that he of COURSE wants to fuck with her?

maybe i should state clearly what i want instead of being passive-aggressive (oh shit, that would be sex first, relationship later…

You used him for emotional intimacy without reciprocating, in kind, with physical intimacy.

Fact is, now, he’s probably getting laid, and in a way, your ultimate rejection of him is to thank for that.

Why shouldn’t we take them at their word?

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mygif

Huh, How did we get from this person is the worst thing ever to he is just a naive young guy who is confused about the world. Its a bit hard, especially for a woman to feel sympathy for TLDR guy.

Its pretty clear the guy lacks any sort of empathy. Maybe its just when he approaches women but I kinda doubt it. The fact that he managed to spew all that crap indicated he is unaware of his surroundings to an embarrassing degree. Due to this lack of awareness of others, he derived a sense of entitlement.

This entitlement is not necessarily explicit(although it does come across pretty loud and clear in this case). This entitlement basically tells the nice guy that if he accomplishes certain tasks that he thinks the girl enjoys, he will be rewarded with a relationship or sex.

This attitude basically leaves the nice guy on a completely different communication channel than the girl in question. When the girl does reject him, the nice guy’s fragile ego turns to anywhere but himself. And the result is the above diatribe. It is a man-child throwing a tantrum. It is petty, Ugly and bitter. Ultimately, the nice guy has to come to realize that his own ego is really not that important in the grand scheme of things. It is far more important to learn how to pay attention to other people. After all, no one likes a selfish prick.

Also, the sociopath argument is really amusing. It takes a special kind of bitterness to imply that the success of others occurs because they lack certain human traits. A bit ironic considering that is usually the nice guys who lacks a sense of empathy.

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FeepingCreature said on January 15th, 2012 at 4:11 am

I don’t want to talk about the nice guy thing at all.

I just want to note that friendships require reciprocity of some kind to function. If you’re in a friendship where the other party gets more value out of you than you get out of them, and it’s depressing you, then it’s okay to get out of that friendship.

It doesn’t make you a bad person.

That is all. Carry on.

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mygif

The poster seems fairly inarticulate,but there seems to be genuine pain there,even if he won’t necessarily admit it.The pain of a clueless,inadequately socialized young man.And no,I don’t think he’s necessarily looking for sex;at least,not exclusively.He could express himself better,and definitely could do with a little less anger,but he does have a point.

There really is no school where the socially impaired can learn to relate to the opposite sex.Most people pick it up as they go along,and some people are naturally good at it,but there is always a s subset of people who have problems with even the basic fundamentals.And to be brutally honest,a fair amount of the relationship advice out there is geared more to getting you laid by multiple women, which is actually easier than getting into a worthwhile relationship.

In my experience,people who are less…invested in their other people tend to …not do better,but have a deeper pool of potential relationship mates.And that pool does not usually overlap with their stable of close friends.

The socially impaired,on the other hand,tend to…fixate,on people who they are already comfortable with.Sometimes,it’s someone they fancy romantically,but start by making friends first as a low risk entree.At other times,it’s old friends who they start to develop feelings for.

There really are emotionally vulnerable people out there who are taken advantage of.It doesn’t necessarily make the people who do so villains;few people are actually evil.It just happens that most people think of themselves first,often to the disadvantage of others,even their friends.

The flood of imagery from Hollywood,doesn’t help,either.Nor do the hormones of young adulthood,which can make people do frankly stupid shit.

PS You know,I really could have used this kinda insight a few years ago.

My apologies for the whole wall of text.

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mygif

See, I feel that there’s a lot of empathy to be had for statements like “There are always two sides to a story, and it DOES matter if you are in a relationship and can talk down to people who are not, or if you are part of the folks which are not in a relationship and try like crazy to get into one only to see all their efforts crumble to dust.”

Out of context, that is. In context, though, this is defending an approach where “try like crazy” does not include “ask a woman out” or “try to understand what this woman that you theoretically consider a friend wants out of a relationship.” That’s the creepy part — the assumption that you’re doing your best when what you’re doing is not founded on trying to understand the other 50% of the equation. 50%! That is a lot of cent.

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mygif

zob:“Also having a abstraction of a person instead of a real one makes things easier.”

Except if you’re the Nice Guy, apparently, who has determined that all women are awful, shallow bitches and yet is still desperately miserable.

Meanwhile, FeepingCreature has it nailed.

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William Kendall said on January 15th, 2012 at 2:48 pm

This guy needs to see a shrink. Post haste.

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ladypeyton said on January 15th, 2012 at 5:05 pm

I think it’s important to point out that there is a distinct difference between nice guys and Nice Guys. Little “n” nice guys are simply guys who are nice. They are friends who are friends for the sake of being friends. They can be an awesome thing to have in your life.

Nice Guys are guys who, having not had their romantic interest returned, decide to act as your friend in hopes that some day the scales will fall from your eyes and you will see the amazing person that is before you and realize the error of your ways. They are friends with ulterior motives. They are, quite simply, guys who don’t take no for an answer who, after a period of time, get very bitter and angry when the object of their affection’s eye scales remain firmly in place.

They are extremely creepy and should be avoided at all costs.

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Jason Barnett said on January 15th, 2012 at 5:05 pm

Feeping Creature- a person with poor social skills may not be so quick to realize they can or should break off a friendship that easily. Earlier in the thread someone made a comment about calling someone at 3 AM to talk about relationship problems. Now for me there’s two reasons to call me at 3 AM. THere’s been a death, or you’re in a different time zone and it’s an accident. Still I wouldn’t look forward to having to tell someone this and wouldn’t know where to go from there.

Eric S. Smith- people generalize in comments, hell this whole thing about “nice guys” is generalization.

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mygif

The first comment in that old thread mentions reading MySpace.

It’s like seeing into a previous century!

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mygif

That original Nice Guys post was how I discovered this blog (hat tip to Cleolinda Jones). Nostalgia!

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mygif

Jason:

There is, of course, another reason why someone might call at 3 AM: namely, if the person they’re calling has encouraged their calling, through such actions as, say, having a conversation at 3 AM instead of saying “I’m sorry, I really need to sleep right now.”

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Re Ladypeyton

They are extremely creepy and should be avoided at all costs.

Clearly they aren’t that creepy, or the objects of their desire wouldn’t keep them on speed-dial. I’m sorry, but this notion “Unrequited love is sick and wrong!” is such a painfully shallow, outsider-looking-in perspective.

On the one hand, I sympathize with girls who think they’ve got a friend only to discover the guy is just interested in the one thing. On the other hand, I’m not sure what gets added to the conversation by screaming “Freak! Freak! Pepper spray him!” Clearly, the guy in question is having a rough time socializing. Using social pressure to emotionally pile-on said guy really just marks you as a Grade A bitch.

Mooning over unrequited love isn’t a strictly male-chasing-female relationship, and I’d be curious to see if your reaction to a girl making heart doodles around the name of her current crush or a woman suddenly deciding to flirt with a platonic friend would get treated with the same level of shock and horror.

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Jason Barnett said on January 16th, 2012 at 5:28 pm

Luke: is it encouragement or simply poor social skills. As I said I wouldn’t like to have the conversation about not calling at 3AM. I’d be wondering what I’d done to give the impression this was an okay thing to do, plus wondering how the person on the other side of the line would react to me trying to end the conversation. And I certainly wouldn’t want to end a friendship during a 3 AM phonecall.

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mygif

@Eric S. Smith
How can you link an observation about bullying (it is easier to bully an abstraction of a person) to an opinion (nice guys are miserable bigots) by using “except”. Transitive or intransitive you shouldn’t be able to do that.

So I am guessing you are trying to insult me by implying that I am a “miserable bigot of a nice guy” and/or you just want to join the bandwagon of bashing.

To your knowledge. I am not a nice person. I do believe that people are evil and stupid. But it is not a gender specific observation. Every single member of human race is evil (though stupidity level changes). We do occasionally act decent because years ago some clever monkey found that it would increase our survival odds.

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highlyverbal said on January 16th, 2012 at 9:09 pm

Zinfab, I love unrequited love just as much as the next person! The Nice Guy isn’t getting slammed for being an introvert, or too optimistic. And you’re right, ladies can experience it, too. I cheer for all these folks!

Buuuuuuuuuut…..

You did read the rants where the women get blamed, right? Let’s talk about that part a little bit. Do you think that fits with your narrative of informed consent about choosing to pursue unrequited love? And how about the transaction language that is constantly employed? This is the person I am willing to pepper spray.

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Jason Barnett said on January 16th, 2012 at 11:30 pm

transaction language started being used about relationships the first time someone said you have to work to have a healthy relationship

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mygif

Obligatory Disclaimer: I am, as of this moment, in a long distance relationship, which is a whole different kind of headache.

I am a guy, and I am the father of two chidren from a former marriage.
That being said; I cannot muster a lot of empathy for a person who makes claims like the reply we are discussing. Though I do feel a non trivial amount of pity.

In my case, I’m still awkward around women. I have zero ideas about how to approach other than to be myself and be honest about how I feel. My method is not spectacularly successful. But it is mine, and i can wrap my head around it.

The sort of frustration the “Nice Guys” feel is familiar though. I have lost count of the number of women who have told me I would be wonderful as a significant other but for the fact that I: A) have kids, and as primary caregiver, and B) make them my first priority.

You get over it, and you move along. But when it seems to repeat as a pattern over and over, you get discouraged. If you give into that discouragement, you can easily become bitter and cynical. If you let that be your only view on things, you become the “Nice Guy”.

A “Nice Guy” isn’t bad, or evil, or anything to be reviled. He’s just pitiful because he’s trapped himself into this unending cycle of obsess-hope-attempt-fail-feel shame-react-hate self-calm down-obsess. and I think that honestly the big thing in that cycle is reacting to the rejection, and then hating one’s own self.

Look, there’s no easy solution to NGS. Nice Guy Syndrome is a horrible mix of hope against (percieved) odds, entitlement, and self targeted hatred. There’s no easy way to overcome that because as humans most of us have a drive to find someone to be with. It doesn’t help that the percieved social norm is one of “if you are alone, you are different/unworthy/broken” and that is a very powerful shame prod.

I have no answers. I don’t feel that “Nice Guys” are owed anything but basic human consideration. But I don’t think just beating them for being caught in that cycle will do much either.

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highlyverbal said on January 17th, 2012 at 2:29 pm

@ Jason Barnett “transaction language started being used about relationships the first time …”

Interesting theory about the origins, but the origin is not really that relevant to how the language employed undercuts Zinfab’s pretty narrative of “unrequited love.”

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Jason Barnett said on January 17th, 2012 at 6:25 pm

highlyverbal- my point was that the language has been used so long it’s the easy, common, regular way to discuss such things most of the time

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I’m a recovering Nice Guy, and all the mocking articles helped me see how creepy I was. They helped heaps.

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HonestObserver said on January 17th, 2012 at 11:39 pm

As someone who leaves snarky comments late, I’m hoping someone will respond to my “The Big Bang Theory is a nerd minstrel show” comment.

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mygif

@HonestObserver

I’ll bite.

With a better haircut, a new outfit and a smile, no police officer would ever empty his gun into any of TBBT’s cast members “because someone mentioned over the police scanner that a store was robbed by geeks.”

OTOH, any random group of black Americans who you’ll ever meet (including those of us who show up at comic book stores on Wednesdays to pick up our pull list items, watch B5/Galactica/BTVS/insert name of nerd-crack TV show here, collect busts of our favorite characters, etc…) will have at least one member who will be able to tell you of at least one situation with police officers that started out with flagrant mis-identification and ended up with a drawn weapon or worse.
In case you’re wondering, my story involved being mistaken for a 5’3-6″, 110-140 lb., dark-skinned and heavily tattooed male wearing a bright green tracksuit. I’m 6′ tall, I haven’t see any weight under 150lb. since my junior year of high school, I’m the same complection as Obama, I don’t have any tattoos and I don’t wear bright colors (never mind the fact that I was in the middle of Texas yet don’t speak with anything resembling a Southern accent), but that sure as fuck didn’t prevent me from being dragged out of a diner by a cop. If I’d have done anything to resist, it probably would have ended much worse for me. In comparison, I’ve never been physically assaulted by a legal authority because I decided to wear something like this

http://www.welovefine.com/product.php?id_product=142

in public.

As a geek, I can do things that will differentiate me from the basement-chained undergrowth that characterises our subculture. As a black man, I can do the exact same things over a longer period of time, but I can’t prove that I’m “not” a flighty “coon” or “psycho thug killa ‘brap’ ‘brap’ gangsta” in the time that it would take for a weapon-wielding coward (law appointed or otherwise) to turn me into bloody chunks.

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mygif

It really disgusts me how so many people are popping up to defend this (and other) Nice Guy.

@zifnab: “Clearly they aren’t that creepy, or the objects of their desire wouldn’t keep them on speed-dial. I’m sorry, but this notion “Unrequited love is sick and wrong!” is such a painfully shallow, outsider-looking-in perspective.”

Stop being disingenuous. The whole idea is that the Nice Guy hides his creepiness for as long as possible in order to obtain the ultimate goal: sex. He pretends to have the girl’s best interests at heart by doing things like always being ready to take her calls.

“On the one hand, I sympathize with girls who think they’ve got a friend only to discover the guy is just interested in the one thing. On the other hand, I’m not sure what gets added to the conversation by screaming “Freak! Freak! Pepper spray him!” Clearly, the guy in question is having a rough time socializing. Using social pressure to emotionally pile-on said guy really just marks you as a Grade A bitch.”

And why is it the girl’s responsibility to hold the hand of this manchild? Really? Getting the fuck away from someone who has been emotionally manipulative and warning others about them makes you a “grade-A bitch?” Why should I care how comfortable my actions make a Nice Guy? Believe it or not, it is NOT a woman’s duty to cater to every man’s desire and comfort, especially with a man who has been dishonest to her. If a Nice Guy reads/hears me ranting about him and realizes how misogynistic his actions are, that’s great! But I certainly am not required to soften my words to make him feel better about it. Your entire post reeks of privilege and entitlement. Speaking of which…

It cannot be emphasized enough that a Nice Guy’s issues stem from a massive sense of entitlement. They believe that they have the right to own a woman’s body in every aspect, especially sexually. They never stop to consider that, “Hey, women have autonomy just like I do, and are free to choose a partner who attracts them. What have I done to make myself desirable to a woman?”

To understand the Nice Guy, you have to realize that they think of women’s bodies like pieces of property that can bought. In this case the currency is not $$$, but is being “Nice”: being a shoulder she can lean on, listening to her problems, etc. If the Nice Guy pays up with this special currency, he is then entitled to the woman’s body for a fuck.

The reason they become so infuriated when these girls start a relationship with someone else (the “Asshole”) is similar to the reason you would be enraged if you finally paid off your house after many years and the realtor promptly kicked you out and gave it to someone else for free.

What Nice Guys don’t understand is that being nice to a woman is not the precursor to a relationship. It is a common courtesy that is expected of everyone. Asking a woman if she wants to be in a relationship is the precursor to a relationship.

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Jason Barnett said on January 18th, 2012 at 9:23 pm

Jade- a woman owns her body so she owns her voice and she can ask the guy for a relationship. And just because you say the “Nice Guys” ultimate goal is simply sex and nothing more doesn’t mean you’re right

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ladypeyton said on January 18th, 2012 at 10:48 pm

Zifnab: unrequited love =/= friendship with ulterior motives. You don’t seem to grasp exactly what Nice Guys are. They are entitled assholes who think that no doesn’t necessarily have to mean no. They are potentially dangerous and should absolutely be avoided at all costs.

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mygif

ladypeyton if women were avoiding nice guys we wouldn’t have this problem in the first place.

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mygif

zob: It’s important to distinguish that nice guys and Nice Guys are two entirely different types of guys.

But once we correct for type, yes there would be less of a problem if Nice Guys were avoided the moment they identified themselves as such. For one thing the negative reinforcement might cause them to change their ways. Sadly, since they don’t tend to wear name tags and identify themselves on sight, the best we can do is publicly discuss how inappropriate and unacceptable their behavior is in hopes that they will get a clue.

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HonestObserver said on January 19th, 2012 at 5:29 pm

@Wafflebox

Just posting this video would have sufficed, but thank you for sharing your personal perspective and struggle. Very heartfelt and eye-opening for the rest of us.

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mygif

Peyton, I don’t believe in nice people.

Let me try to simplify difference between them. Women say they want nice guys so group of males that cannot compete for alpha male status go for that trait. Those are “Nice Guys”. Some mothers condition their male children to be perfect mates and for some reason they too believe they wanted a nice guy for mate. Those kids grow up to be “nice guys”. In the end they both are pretty much the same thing (unless they are gay)

It doesn’t really matter which is which. Nice guy syndrome occurs mostly out of familiarity (or misunderstood kindness). Being close to an opposing gender for a long period of time triggers some kind of possession instinct, jealousy etc. And people start to believe that they love those persons. Regardless of that baggage who do you actually love is dependent of your and your future mates hormonal make-up. If you find someone suitable you’ll fall in love with that person. And even if that person is a grade a asshole you’ll still love him because your body will tell you to do so. Meanwhile dumping that emotional baggage to your friends including the nice guy. And he’ll resent you for it. And you know the rest of the story.

Point is it’s all natural, whining is stupid and we are all evil bastards. So stay away from nice guys unless they are gay.

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mygif

I was always too scared to ask anyone out as a kid because of shit like this. The way people are dehumanized and called “creeps” and “freaks” for awkwardly attempting to form a relationship with another human being preemptively stopped me from getting close to others.

I missed a lot of chances to really get to know people because of this.

I wish I had been more assertive and hadn’t let all of this internet vitriol stop me from trying. To those of you lashing out, please stop being afraid of things that make you uncomfortable. We’re all human.

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[…] the whole “Nice Guy” topic came up again, well after the initial post had become a thing of legend. Many people jumped in on the new […]

mygif

“To those of you lashing out, please stop being afraid of things that make you uncomfortable. We’re all human.”

You’re going to have to qualify what you mean there. For women, being afraid of things that make them uncomfortable is often a preventative against getting raped.

If it’s just somebody who’s somewhat socially awkward, sure. But I’m not going to leave myself in a situation I feel afraid in just because it might hurt the guy’s feelings.

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missmayinga said on January 21st, 2012 at 8:29 pm

You guys. You guys, you guys, you guys.
There’s nothing wrong with wanting sex. There’s nothing wrong with unrequited love. Nobody is saying those things are bad.

Where it crosses into ‘creepy asshole’ territory is when you start thinking that the unrequitedness of your love is due to some character defect on the other party’s behalf, and posting long, bitter rants about it on the internet. Mature people don’t do that. Mature people, once they realize that the other person does not return their affections, buck the fuck up and move on.

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mygif

Excuse me, is that guy up there justifying himself being a Nice Guy by saying that there are a lot of women that take advantage of that?

And what are you doing there? Taking revenge for all the other men out there? If you think that bitch is taking advantage of you, get away from her, stop whining and go find a decent woman.

Apart from that to everyone that defends these nice guys, as a guy in a related article said, imagine you (a strait male) having a male friend who is supportive and does all of kinds nice things for you. He is a best friend. Suddenly he reveals that he is attracted to you and feels that because of him being so nice to you, you have to have a relationship with him. How is that?

Also being socially awkward is a whole different story from being nice in exchange for a relationship (or even just sex). And women don’t have it better than men. We are in a transitional period in the relationships of the genders. We don’t have a set of rules of how to show interest and get the guy without looking desperate or too aggressive either. We are insecure and socially awkward too. Some of us deal with it, some of us use doormat guys.

Thank god this “girls have cooties” way of mind has started to fade away and boys and girls these days hung out with each other and learn to communicate.

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