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Adam Scott said on May 27th, 2012 at 1:58 pm

You’re right though, Iron Man and Captain America don’t make any sense. It seems like it’d be more of a Clint/Steve and Bruce/Tony pairing, if we’re being honest. Thor would get with any of them, no question.

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A friend of mine made the case that the dislike between Stark and Rogers has much deeper political roots.

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So, to recap:

Anybody else objects to Steve/Tony slashfic because it is inconsistent with their canon characters: Disingenuous mask for sexism and/or homophobia.

John Seavey objects to Steve/Tony slashfic because it is inconsistent with their canon characters: Completely sincere objection to out-of-canon plotting.

You can’t have this both ways. Either Pathetic Avengers Fangirl is 100% right that she can remix canon anyway she wants, or there are limits as you put forth in your second paragraph. Either everybody (not just you) is entitled to argue in good faith about the artistic merits of slash, or everybody (including you) must be presumed to be covering up some ulterior social agenda.

I’m sure a great many opponents of slash simply dislike seeing “outsiders” in their fandom imposing “icky” topics they don’t like. That doesn’t mean all of them do, or that this should be the default reaction to them. (I certainly don’t think it’s fair to infer they’re all secretly writing femslash and being huge hypocrites about it.) Maybe the guy that complains about Steve/Tony but doesn’t bat at an eye at Frank Miller’s Batman is simply a hardcore Avengers fan who doesn’t give a shit about Batman. Or maybe not. The point is that the minute one doesn’t even allow for the more benign possibility is the minute rational discourse breaks down.

(Full disclosure: As far as I’m concerned, fans can say Cap and Iron Man are housecats, canon be damned. They just shouldn’t expect me to get too excited about their Avengers-as-housecats fanfiction, and I’m sure they don’t.)

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Dilettante said on May 27th, 2012 at 3:46 pm

It’s worth remembering that slash originally contained a very large chunk of homosexuality precisely because overt depictions of homosexuality weren’t allowed. Heteros didn’t have the same need to put Kirk and Spock together because the show already provided Kirk plus green alien woman. The absence of mass-media homosexual relationships is less pronounced than it used to be, but it’s still there. And in any case, at this point, with the Internet further enabling it, slash fiction has become an institution itself.

Slash is still heavily homosexual, plus various other non-standard kinks that aren’t displayed as much in other places. A bit freaky, in other words. And slash has tended towards expressing those facets via explicit porn. It’s not surprising that combination rubs some people the wrong way.

You’ve got two things for people to react against: placing familiar characters in pornographic relationships and making explicit changes to character sexual orientation. There’s a lot more to react against than with other changes – Frank Miller having a different take on Batman is just not going to have the same impact. (And there are people who protest that too, right?)

Which is to say that’s it’s not just about enforcing white male privilege. It has more to do with which parts of a character belong to whom, and how we negotiate differing conceptions. Flipped around, some fear that gay Kirk (or Iron Man, or whoever) takes away their ability to appreciate straight/mainstream Kirk or Iron Man. That their own interpretation has been called into question. Some people react negatively towards someone else appropriating a character to impose their personal sex-spin. If nobody objected to that, it would mean the character had failed to make any kind of impression at all, which would be worse.

And, of course, superhero comics encourage the reader to heavily self-identify with the characters, which just raises the stakes of ownership and control that much more.

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If we’re discussing this, I think Herc is obvious slut elephant in the room.

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@Jim: That was the point of that paragraph; it was there to demonstrate that the reason why the tactic works as often as it does is that we, as fans, are instinctively drawn to discussions like that. We find the construction of hypotheticals involving our favorite characters fascinating, because it makes them seem more real in our minds to imagine their reactions to scenarios not specifically envisioned.

That said, I also think that there’s an obvious difference between saying, “I don’t think that particular pairing takes into account the very real antipathy the two characters have shown to each other from ‘Armor Wars’ up through ‘Civil War'” and “I can’t believe that you’re saying my favorite character is gay! Superheroes aren’t gay, they’re tough and manly!” And it’d be vastly oversimplifying to equate the two.

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Hey, your relentlessly angry, anti-social, ruthless Batman is actually pretty fundamentally at odds with the character’s history,

Off-topic, but is that actually true at this point? People have been writing Batman that way off an on since I was three. It’s just as much a part of the characters history now as being married was a part of Peter Parker’s.

And on-topic, but… what the fuck is wrong with these people? I read fanfiction. I write fanfiction. I’ve created and helped curate fanfic pages on TVtropes. I’m a giant, giant loser fanboy in this regard.

And the whole point of fanfiction is that it isn’t canonical! That is why it exists! If canon were providing precisely what were in our heads we wouldn’t be writing it.

I’ve seen fanfiction that was bad. Just in the Marvel Universe, for example, I’ve seen plenty of “Tony was right, and everyone who sided against him in Civil War was wrong and treasonous. Fucking hippies” fanfic. I’ve seen “Bruce Banner mind-control rapes his way through the entire Marvel Universe. Do you want to read 40,000 words of him sodomizing Thor to death? It’s right here!”. I’ve read neo-Nazi fanfic where Red Skull is the hero. (Yes, it exists.)

And if you’re getting upset over that, as opposed to being amused, well, there’s just no help for you. You hate Teh Gay? Good for you. You’re an idiot, and we’re going to derive amusement from your idiocy.

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Heksefatter said on May 27th, 2012 at 4:45 pm

I will never get why anyone would want to write pornographic fanfic between Iron Man and Captain America. But I will never get why anyone would give a damn about someone else doing it, either.

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@Murc- many people prefer fanfic that could be “lost episodes” of the show/fiction written, or examinations of the canon character that are believable. Change it to much and you’re dressing up an original character in a Captain America or Iron Man or whoever suit

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malakim2099 said on May 27th, 2012 at 6:26 pm

@Murc: Actually, with the recent Grant Morrison stuff right before the reboot… and reading a bit of Batman after the reboot? Yeah, sociopath Batman pretty much exists only in Frank Miller’s head.

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John Seavey is so right here.

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mystman said on May 27th, 2012 at 8:06 pm

Ah,another chapter from “John Seavy and the Made up Controveries. Honestly,who gives a shit? A couple of jerkwad fanboys get all bent out of shape about some fangirl making Avengers slash fiction? A four paragraph article dedicated to that? Is nothing else going on? This was a running joke on Supernatural for God’s sake. Who cares?

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The thing that bugs me about slash fiction is how it fetishizes gay men and homosexuality. But whatever, people can write what they want.

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@mystman: “Who gives a shit?” Well, women and gay men. Thank you for proving my point (and PAF’s point, and the point of everyone else commenting on this) by completely dismissing the idea that there might be some sort of controversy about this, because apparently you only believe that people are getting upset when white men are talking about it.

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Personally, I just think slash fiction of any sort is kinda lame. Shipping is one of those fandom quirks I have no time for.

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And you know I’m not a black gay man?

I’m not, but that’s not the point. The fanboys complaining about slash fiction are undoubtedly homophobic asshats. But fan culture and the internet has homophobic asshats. Why give them a forum? Who cares what they think? PAF herself says they’re in the minority. So,I ask again, who gives a shit?

Good on her for standing up for herself. But you could of given us a link to her article and said “Read this. Great article.” Not gone on for four paragraphs about it.

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Gustopher said on May 28th, 2012 at 12:49 am

Am I the only one who really wants the Abengers as Housecats fics?

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@Mystman: Seriously? “And you know I’m not a gay black man?” Yes, I do, because it’s only white guys who try to suggest that they totally could be (black/gay/women/Asian/Hispanic) and just arguing the way a white guy who’s totally oblivious to his own sense of privilege does, and that the person they’re arguing with is the real racist/sexist for making that assumption! It’s a weaksauce argument, the kind of thing people say when they know they don’t have a leg to stand on and are hoping they can change the subject real fast by going on the attack.

And yes, people like that are (I hope) in the minority. But they are vocal, and obnoxious, and they like to insist that they are in the majority. They try to make people believe that everyone thinks like they do, but not everyone says it, so that people like PAF will think that they’re alone in disagreeing and will stay silent. So yes, I do think it’s incumbent on me to speak up when I read something like that, to say “No, you’re not alone. Other people agree with you, and here’s why.” She doesn’t need my permission to speak, of course. But hearing someone else validate her point of view might make it a little easier to stand up to the next homophobic asshat. And if that means vocally, repeatedly, and in elaborate terms clarifying that I think that comics are for everyone and nobody should be excluded from fandom based on race, religion, gender or sexual orientation, I’m going to do so…and frankly, anyone who thinks nothing needs to be said anymore is part of the problem. Because at best, they’re enabling homophobic asshats by staying silent when said asshats try to shout down others.

Or, if none of that sinks in, I’ll just answer your question. “Who gives a shit?” I do. So I said something. Any other questions?

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I’m with Greg on the whole fetishizing a minority only less bug and more pissed off. If cultural apprpriation of minorities by whites is bad then why is sexuality appropraition of minorities by hetero’s for their id masturbation ok?

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@ adela: an awful lot of slash and other queer fic is written by fans who are queer. it’s a way of creating representation where it didn’t exist previously. i’ve read a lot of slash written by gay men and gay women, trans* interpretations of characters, interpretations that rework white characters as poc… it’s the internet it’s really limitless.
(it’s true that a lot of straight women write slash, but there are bigger things at work there, such as the lack of decent representation in the media (especially comics and genre shows), the want for a powerful position in a sexual fantasy when you’ve been told your entire life that women have no sexual power/a want for a sexual fantasy where all the members are on equal social footing, internalized misogyny etc). there’s also the fact that a lot of the time relationships between male characters are often much more developed and explored by the media than relationships between women or between women and men. often the main hetero couple in an action or sci-fi film will have little development beyond ‘hero gets the girl as a reward’, while a partnership, friendship, or ‘bromance’ between two male characters will have much more developmen and be a heck of a lot more interesting. you go where the meat is.

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Travesty said on May 28th, 2012 at 4:52 am

I worry a bit about the subtext of infantilization/fetishization of homosexual males in slash fiction: seeing, to bring up a recent example, Loki being portrayed as a candyraver-esque gay boy in a way that completely disregards the characters’ actions or aspirations is something I find distressing both in terms of the indifference it displays to the source material and the portrait it paints of gay men. Other than that I definitely agree that people are free to write what they want when it comes to their fanfiction, but I’ll also admit that shipfics, hetero or otherwise, mostly bore me, again because of that disinterest factor. I’ll illustrate with something I’ve mentioned elsewhere, my Parable of the Puppeteer.

“There’s a puppeteer. He’s good with his craft and more than that he’s a fine storyteller. He’s come to town to show us what he’s been working on for the last few years. The puppets are expressive and the story is quite good. And behind me there’s someone who won’t shut up about how cool it would be if those two puppets made out.”

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Travesty said on May 28th, 2012 at 4:58 am

Wow. That was a lot of mixed messaging. To sum up, minus the froofy text:

A) Gay men are often presented in patronizing ways in slash fiction.

B) Slash fiction tends to to be dismissive of the source material.

C) We’re all grown-ups here and people can still write it if they want, no matter whether or not I want to read the result.

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The only thing we really need to take away is that only white males are homophobic and no one else.

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My thougths on slash are – I’m not a fan of all pairings, but I’m not gonna go find writers/artists and complain to them. I’m just not gonna look up slash. If it comes up in a search for, say, Harry Potter fanart, I just go OK, don’t click it, and continue searching for what I do want. Do I have slash pics of women saved? Of course, I’m a straight man. Am I gonna complain about slash of guys? No, not my business. I’ve even loosened up on the whole Sora/Riku thing from Kingdom Hearts, and I hated those fangirls for a while.

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Eli Balin said on May 28th, 2012 at 1:19 pm

*glances around furtively, seals script for “Wolverine Fucks the Marvel Universe” in underground vault.*

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Parhelion said on May 28th, 2012 at 1:57 pm

@Murc

“I’ve created and helped curate fanfic pages on TVtropes. I’m a giant, giant loser winner fanboy in this regard.”

There ya go.

@Travesty

“A) Gay men are often presented in patronizing ways in slash fiction.”

I agree this is too often the case, which is why I hope the authors in question will write more fiction and have it read by lively, self-aware communities that provide feedback.

Experience and critiques are the most likely ways these outsider depictions might get better since I doubt any group will ever stop writing about any other, less influential group. After all, men haven’t stopped depicting women in mainstream literature since the 1970’s, or the 1910’s, or the 1830’s no matter how dreadful the results.

As well, more practice might also help improve fanfic written by the groups themselves, stories which can also somehow sound patronizing or weirdly askew about their own communities. Three words here: fanfic on Nifty. (And anyone who read that example, please don’t follow up if you don’t know what I’m talking about and are easily upset by a different set of writing priorities.)

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what makes me sad is that these girls could be reading the comics instead of just obsessing over the films.

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To be fair, the person who has the blog in the original post definitely reads the comics.

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“what makes me sad is that these girls could be reading the comics instead of just obsessing over the films.”

Sure, they could be reading the comics full of impenetrable, labyrinthine continuity and stripperific female heroes in spine-twisting cheesecake poses, but why on earth would they? Let’s face it, the Marvel movies have wayyyyyyyyyyyyy more appeal to the average person on the street than comics ever will barring some massive shakeups over in funnybookland. Plus superhero movies don’t have the enormous unpleasant nerd stigma that superhero comicbooks do (differentiated from other more pleasant types of nerd association, that is to say, not that women can’t like nerdy things).

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I don’t actually see fetishization of homosexual relationships in slash. Slash relationships are usually quite heteronormative, with one character playing female and the other male. You can think of it as stolen from he whole uke/seme dynamic you see in yaoi.

Is homosexuality a feature or a bug? Do they want to write homosexual relationships, or simply relationships between two male characters for another reason (ie they like both characters and they have good chemistry)?

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Chris K said on May 28th, 2012 at 6:01 pm

“That was the point of that paragraph; it was there to demonstrate that the reason why the tactic works as often as it does is that we, as fans, are instinctively drawn to discussions like that.”

John Seavey, you cannot get away with that because you are coming from a position of power. You are saying “This is not OK” and then you are doing exactly the thing you said is OK. You have arrogated the power to decide what is right to yourself, and then you have made a mockery of your own decision.

“…And it’d be vastly oversimplifying to equate the two.”

Tell that to the guy who wrote “So by hiding behind, ‘So-and-so wouldn’t do that!’…”

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Travesty said on May 28th, 2012 at 7:02 pm

@Parhelion -Well, therein lies the rub: it all comes down to the purpose of the writing. I mean, I’m all for larger group critique: I want to get back into writing myself. But I have to admit that I feel uncomfortable about critiquing a story which may well be fetish fuel for the writer.

@Kai -I want you to be less right than you are. I feel like steps in the right direction are being made overall, but every time we have moments like the kerfuffle which took place about Catwoman, Starfire and Voodoo when DC did their reboot last year I question this.

@Grazzt -I’d talked about exactly that a few weeks ago with a friend of mine, up to and including saying that the standard yaoi dynamic is an ersatz heterosexual relationship. But if anything I think that only makes my comments about it being fetishized more relevant, because it suggests to me that they’re not interested in portraying an actual gay relationship as much as they are in the fact that it’s two guys.

But again, even if this sort of thing makes me uncomfortable I still have to emphasize that I have no business and no right to tell someone that they can’t write what they like.

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Strawhair said on May 29th, 2012 at 12:44 am

Wow. That Heroes for Hire cover that “patheticfangirl” reproduces is supposed to be sexual, I’d wager, but I can’t see it. It’s not even in the ballpark of what a human fenale looks like. Rob Liefeld will live forever.

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CapnSilver said on May 29th, 2012 at 6:17 am

Can’t I just dislike bad characterisation without being called a homophobe? This is why I hate a lot of fan fiction, slash or not slash

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The Unstoppable Gravy Express said on May 29th, 2012 at 10:38 am

Question! Which is more valid, slash fanfic or Marvel Zombies?

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“what makes me sad is that these girls could be reading the comics instead of just obsessing over the films.”

It’s funny that you think a lot of female slash writers AREN’T reading the comics.

Case in point: Tony/Steve is a huge pairing that comes out of comics fandom, not the movie fandom. After the movie came out, I heard a lot more people (i.e. readers in the slash community) saying that they were surprised to find that they didn’t get as good a slashy vibe off Tony and Steve in the movie as they’d hoped/expected, whereas they got a huge slashy vibe from Tony and Bruce. Voila — big uptick in stories about Tony and Bruce, both being Science Bros, and romance stories. Which isn’t to say that the Tony/Steve shippers from the comics are necessarily giving up on their ship.

Anyway, Kai’s reply is also germaine. The movies are a lot more accessible to female fans in a number of ways — and I say this as a woman and a long-time comics reader. The movies cut out a lot of the accumulated bullshit of the comics’ history, and overall, the movies have been a lot friendlier to their female characters, as well as engaging in a fair bit of equal opportunity female-gaze fanservice. The comics are still pretty firmly stuck in the male-gaze mode. Plus, they’re difficult to follow, while the movies are easy to follow.

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@Chris K: If what you really took away from this is, “Nobody should ever discuss anyone else’s ideas or interests in any way other than to acknowledge their existence”, then I clearly failed in my task as far as you’re concerned. What I’m saying is, “When someone is not arguing in good faith while discussing other people’s ideas or interests, but is instead trying to shut them down to enforce a hegemony of ‘proper forms’ of enthusiasm for said interests, it is entirely proper to call them out for not arguing in good faith.”

This actually feeds back into what Travesty is saying. It is not improper to say, “I read your Thor/Loki slash and I thought you made Loki into a caricature of a gay man, and I would have preferred more depth of characterization.” It is not inappropriate to say, “I really think that Cap would be more interested in Hawkeye than in Iron Man.” These statements take as read that the other person’s point of view is valid and deserves recognition. They are starting points for discussion.

Saying, “QUIT homosexualizing my friends, it’s slander and defamation of character,” is a thinly-veiled attempt to shout down the other person’s point of view as not having validity. It is an attempt to shut down discussion, to shut the other person up, and it is not arguing in good faith. These things are very different. If you genuinely can’t see that, and you really think that human interaction can be expressed as a binary–all forms of disagreement should be allowed or none should–then might I suggest you not go online until you get that little problem sorted? It’ll make you much happier. :)

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Michael P said on May 29th, 2012 at 10:27 pm

Sure, they can remix the canon any way they want. And I can call it childish, self-indulgent twaddle, whether it’s Cap and Iron Man banging or Goku coming to their high school and beating up the basketball team. The beauty of free speech.

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My opinion of slash fiction: As long as Ranma and Akane are the “One True Pair”, I don’t care about which fictional/real characters are inserted into anyone’s masturbatory or empowerment fantasy.

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” They don’t run around pointing to every single piece of non-canonical fan art or fanfiction and tell the people involved that they shouldn’t be coming up with a different interpretation of the character than tradtionally done. They don’t even go up to Frank Miller and say, “Hey, your relentlessly angry, anti-social, ruthless Batman is actually pretty fundamentally at odds with the character’s history, and is depressingly unsympathetic and one-note.” ”

…but they do. They do it all the time. I’ll bet you someone is doing it RIGHT NOW.

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Chris K said on May 30th, 2012 at 6:57 am

OK, John Seavey. I will ignore the part of your response where you revoke my permission to internet and imply that I might not be sane, and focus on the portions that appear to be arguing in good faith.

If what you really took away from this is, “Nobody should ever discuss anyone else’s ideas or interests in any way other than to acknowledge their existence”, then I clearly failed in my task as far as you’re concerned.

I agree that you failed in your task as far as I’m concerned. I did not, however, take away from this that nobody should ever discuss blah blah blah. Here’s what I took away from this:

“any guy (and they do always seem to be guys) who gets creeped out, personally offended, emotionally disturbed, or just generally defensive on behalf of poor straight Captain America and Iron Man who can’t do anything about some gurl making them make out and stuff can lump it.”

To be fair, what you did is not necessarily getting “generally defensive.” You got very specifically defensive as you appealed to your own interpretation of the canonical relationship between Captain America and Iron Man to demonstrate that even though you are totally cool with the gay, they would never actually bone. I can see how you might argue that you are not, in this case, “generally defensive.”

EXCEPT that you preface your defensiveness with “Which is, of course, 99% correct. (It’d be 100%, except that I…” You admit that you are one of the guys who ought to lump it, but go on to explain that your have found the Magic Talisman of Not Lumping It. You yourself included you in the category of guys who blah blah blah. Not me. You.

And whenever anyone calls you on it, you retreat to hyperbole.

What I’m saying is, “When someone is not arguing in good faith while discussing other people’s ideas or interests, but is instead trying to shut them down to enforce a hegemony of ‘proper forms’ of enthusiasm for said interests, it is entirely proper to call them out for not arguing in good faith.”

That’s not actually what you said. What you said was “You should totally keep enjoying the Avengers in whatever way makes you feel happy. Because that’s what being a fan is about.” You didn’t say “You should totally keep enjoying the Avengers in a way that you are prepared to defend against my understanding of the inner desires of Tony Stark and Steve Rogers.”

This actually feeds back into what Travesty is saying. It is not improper to say, “I read your Thor/Loki slash and I thought you made Loki into a caricature of a gay man, and I would have preferred more depth of characterization.” It is not inappropriate to say, “I really think that Cap would be more interested in Hawkeye than in Iron Man.” These statements take as read that the other person’s point of view is valid and deserves recognition. They are starting points for discussion.

Again, you did not attempt to start a discussion. You carved out an exception in the class of guys who can lump it for yourself.

Saying, “QUIT homosexualizing my friends, it’s slander and defamation of character,” is a thinly-veiled attempt to shout down the other person’s point of view as not having validity. It is an attempt to shut down discussion, to shut the other person up, and it is not arguing in good faith.

I agree! And I agree that what you did was qualitatively different. And yes, it is totally permissible for you to advance your arguments that Captain America should not be boning Iron Man. But it is NOT permissible for you to couch it in the context of saying that 99% of arguments against that pairing are impermissible. Indeed, the way you phrased it (“It would be 100%, except…”) implies that your argument is the ONLY valid counterargument; that you are the only guy who need not lump it.

I get that your digression was tongue-in-cheek. My claim is that your tongue-in-cheek digression served to undermine your argument; that it was out of place in this discussion.

Here, again and in brief, is my understanding of what you wanted to communicate in your original post:

“Guys ought not to criticize shippers in general and Pathetic Avengers Fangirl in particular for homosexual pairings. Shippers have as much a claim to fandom as neckbeards. Fans are entitled to enjoy fandom in whatever way makes them happy.”

These are all things I agree with. What I don’t agree with is you going on to say:

“However, if you pair Captain America and Iron Man, you are wrong. Other people will tell you you are wrong; they’re just being disingenuous UNLESS they invoke the ‘much deeper and more fundamental dislike’ that I have always seen between the two characters.”

And then you have defended at length the fact that you are entitled to make this criticism because it’s totally different from the 99% of guys who are not making valid arguments and are instead attempting to shut down discussion. All those other guys are just hiding behind “So-and-so wouldn’t do that!”, but John Seavey knows why so-and-so wouldn’t do that. Alright, John Seavey, you win. You go tell Pathetic Avengers Fangirl the REAL reason she’s wrong to pair Captain America and Iron Man.

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DensityDuck said on May 30th, 2012 at 4:53 pm

It’s pretty funny how the first paragraph of this blog post is like “this fanfic contains homosexual slash so the only reason so many people are criticising it must be bigotry! (BTW she’s totally wrong about Cap/Tony.)”

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@Chris K:

“These two characters would never do that, they’re NOT GAY!” is not the same argument as “taking as given for a moment that these two characters could be gay, it does seem like there are some other people around they’d be a little more likely to prefer.” The first is a flat “you’re wrong, this is wrong, it’s not allowed,” while the second is saying, “I am incredulous for these reasons; you’re going to need to sell me on it.”

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and why is it so wrong to believe two characters aren’t gay

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Chris K said on May 31st, 2012 at 1:56 am

@Burke:

Why are you telling me this? Have I given you reason to believe that I believe these two things are the same argument? I do not believe that they are the same argument. I only believe that it’s a shitty thing to do to use canon to call someone out for making an inappropriate pairing in the same post that you defend their right to “totally keep enjoying the Avengers in whatever way makes you feel happy.” If you can point out the exact portion of my argument you believe you have invalidated, I’d be happy to reconsider.

Oh, hey – nobody has yet called me out on this, but perhaps I should make it clear. I find John Seavey’s argument regarding why Captain America and Iron Man must not bone to be valid and acceptable discourse. I just feel that making that point in this context undermines the point I believe John Seavey was attempting to make. ObCraigFerguson: “Does this need to be said? Does this need to be said by me? Does this need to be said by me right now?”

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@Chris K:

From over here, it did look like you were conflating the two, yes. And he wasn’t “calling her out,” or at least that’s not how I read it. He takes a moment to give his personal read on the characters–he doesn’t say “they must not bone,” and it seems a little disingenuous of you to claim that he does.

This is like the Goofus and Gallant of “using canon to support a critique,” and you’re complaining because they’re doing similar activities.

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dirge93 said on May 31st, 2012 at 4:26 pm

Since it’s amusing and kind of undercuts the whole “Iron Man and Captain America wouldn’t date because it goes against their character” , from Supernatural….

Dean: And what’s a slash fan?
Sam: As in… Sam slash Dean. Together.
Dean: Like… together together?
Sam: Yeah.
Dean: They do know we’re brothers, right?
Sam: It doesn’t seem to matter.

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Iron Man’s not gay! He has a mustache!

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ladypeyton said on June 1st, 2012 at 2:23 am

Why do so many men here find it hard to understand the difference between, “I don’t like that you are making my two heroes bone! Stop it!” and “Huh. I think that these two other heroes would be more likely to bone, but go ahead and enjoy fandom any way you like?”

Newsflash, boys. You don’t own comics fandom. You aren’t the only people who read and enjoy comics. In fact. SOME of us girls HAVE BEEN HERE LONGER THAN YOU!

I read my first Avengers comic in 1972 and immediately fell in love. I’ve been here for 40 years. I’m not in your sandbox. You’re in mine and get the hell of my lawn.

“The thing that bugs me about slash fiction is how it fetishizes gay men and homosexuality.”

Welcome to every day in every way for women who read comics. Suck it up and deal.

“what makes me sad is that these girls could be reading the comics instead of just obsessing over the films.”

Uh huh. Son. Given the average age of posters on the internet, there is a significant chance I’ve been reading comics longer than you’ve been alive. If I want to write a fan fiction where Iron Man bones Cap’s *SHIELD* I’ll bloody well do so and shut your gob with your complaints. You don’t like what I write? Feel free to ignore it, but don’t ever dare to tell me how I get to express my love of the fandom. Don’t like it? Go write what you want to read yourself and leave my sandbox alone.

Now I don’t write slash. It simply doesn’t appeal to me. But I don’t care who does because the reality of fandom is that it’s big enough for all of us, no matter how small some blind fool wants to believe it is.

And after all of the dehumanizing, delegitimizing, demoralizing-to-women crap *in canon* that I’ve had to endure in the past 40 years it’s about time someone turned the tables and showed the privileged what it’s like to run into stuff that makes you feel uncomfortable and creepy and get told that it wasn’t written for you so just go away. Especially by people who you are pretty sure haven’t been around as long as you have.

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mygif

““The thing that bugs me about slash fiction is how it fetishizes gay men and homosexuality.”

Welcome to every day in every way for women who read comics. Suck it up and deal.”

That’s . . . a problematic argument, to say the least.

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mygif

What are you talking about, if I keep adding these two wrongs together they might eventually make a right.

Referring to homosexuals as privileged and needing or deserving of having the “tables turned” on them is pretty fucking ~*~problematic~*~. Also, I have seen that exact same “it wasn’t written for (x audience), therefore your criticism is invalid” response used many times to try and deflect feminist critiques of comics. It was a poor argument there too.

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mygif
Travesty said on June 1st, 2012 at 9:51 am

@ladypepton-I’m not here to argue that the fetishization of women in comic books was in any way okay, and if it came across that I was singling out one particular category of disrespectful and dehumanizing behavior while blithely ignoring others, believe me when I say that this is not the case.

But as another woman who reads comics and has since she was little (my father read my brother and I ‘Classic X-Men’ as bed-time stories when I was four: the first story I can say I remember is the Phoenix Saga) I like to aim for a platform of mutual respect rather than, say, gloating about dehumanizing other people because it had been done to me previously. Even if I apparently haven’t gone through it as long as you have.

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mygif
Chris K said on June 1st, 2012 at 4:24 pm

“Why do so many men here find it hard to understand the difference between, “I don’t like that you are making my two heroes bone! Stop it!” and “Huh. I think that these two other heroes would be more likely to bone, but go ahead and enjoy fandom any way you like?””

Why do you believe men here find it hard to understand the difference between those two things? I propose instead that some men appreciate that difference, and yet find the latter inappropriate in this context.

Especially when the latter is phrased as “Cap and Iron Man’s arguing actually masks a much deeper and more fundamental dislike that the two have for each other based on the fact that Iron Man really is a dangerous control freak whose actions, while well-meaning, betray the fact that he actually is so elitist that he thinks that he should be allowed to run other people’s lives, and Cap finds that morally abhorrent.” Yeah, that’s totally saying “sure, they’d fuck, but not as much as Cap and Hawkeye.”

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