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Ah, and Earth-2 Batman – I forgot to address that point. Earth-2 Batman is another version of Batman changing his method – he became the Police Commissioner. He had Robin and Huntress doing the ‘Young person’s work’ in the capes and tights. Batman doesn’t quit. He finds some way to fight.

And it’s especially egregious in the Nolan-verse, with its repeated use of the “Why do we fall?” mantra. Apparently, the answer is “So we can slack off and sulk for eight years, then give up altogether after one last hurrah.”

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the characters inside the narrative have been bombarded with theme-laden speeches and see themselves as actors in a thematic drama so of course they’re going to act thematically!

It’s a bad sign when things happen because that delivers some message rather than because that’s what those characters would do in those situations – when the plot becomes less important than the themes. Unfortunately, that happens now and then in this movie, definitely more than in the two previous. We can wonder about the League of Shadows’ motives in ways we couldn’t before, and they’re pretty thin. And the movie tells us that Batman’s theatrics and shadow-fu doesn’t work on Bane and his men because they were trained by the League. Batman still manages to ambush sentries patrolling the sewers just fine, though, and he never bothers trying anything tricky on Bane himself. It’s like Bane personally has a, to put it in RPG terms, shadow resistance aura.

’ve read that DKR mocks the Occupy movement, and I don’t really understand that criticism.

The politics of it were pretty clearly horrible to me. It’s possible to imagine non-horrible explanations for it – Bane isn’t Occupy because he’s going to blow up the city, Catwoman regrets her role – but still, everyone who ever mentions economic inequality is using it as a pretext for either their own issues or mass murder, but don’t worry because the billionaires and police will maintain order.

I liked the movie overall despite that. Art doesn’t need to be politically correct as long as it’s good. The third X-Men movie was the one most focused on prejudice, and look how that turned out. (That wasn’t the main problem with it, of course, but it didn’t make up for everything else.)

Talia out of fucking nowhere also felt kind of cheap.

Actually, I really liked how they handled her. I told my girlfriend I was tricked by the reveal, but “outsmarted” would have been a better term for it. I knew Ras has a daughter in the comics, but the movie established Bane well before they ever connected him to Ras at all, let alone hinted at parentage. There was no point at which I thought, “Wait a second, what about Talia?” When she was revealed I was just, “Oh, yeah…” I’m sure some people knew about her all along, but Nolan got me there.

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John 2.0 said on July 23rd, 2012 at 11:28 am

I think an equally valid answer to ‘Why do we fall’ is ‘So we can pick ourselves up, and finally move forward with our lives.’ I think that’s what Alfred’s last speech is all about, moving past the cave after securing Gotham’s safety. I think it’s also he shops up in that French cafe at the end, sot show Alfred that he finally heeded his advice, and that all was forgiven.

But interpretations can vary.

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Clambone said on July 23rd, 2012 at 11:30 am

I saw what I considered to be three plot holes that aren’t addressed above, and I’d be curious if anyone had thoughts about them.

1) The underground prison works visually and thematically, and I’d love to love it. But it’s got a fucking pulley at the top of the shaft that would allow anyone with control of the rope to lift anyone else out of it. I understand that the jailers leave it slack when the prisoners get to the crucial jump, but the prisoners are allowed to crowd up to the jailer with the rope at will. If the prisoners revolt, they could lift each other out all day. I found that pretty distracting.

2) There is simply no way that Bruce Wayne’s alleged “bet the company” trades would have been considered valid a) after a massive terrorist attack b) after the damn cable was cut c) in violation of insider trading laws. (I’ll give them partial credit: they tried to address is by saying that Wayne could have tried to prove fraud, but it would take months.)

3) Bane’s takeover of Gotham was terrifying- great cinema!- and his ideological League of Shadows minions would presumably stay with him, but it’s pretty uninspiring for the common criminal, isn’t it? From the perspective of the criminals who were released from jail, or the kids who joined up in the sewers for lack of better options, it would probably be fun to raid some rich people’s houses, but a week into it, they’re trapped on an island and scrambling for rations just like the rest of the folks. Wouldn’t you be looking for some progressive new leadership?

Finally, this isn’t a plot hole, just an observation: Christopher Nolan’s Batman really doesn’t belong in a Justice League movie, does he? In the comics, he justifies his lack of powers with his inhuman planning and forethought, but this Batman just ain’t that guy.

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William O'Brien said on July 23rd, 2012 at 11:32 am

If by “happily ever after” you mean “spending all his time training an army to carry on his work” then sure.

Rises ends with him supplying a successor to carry on his work. He even gives Gordon a new signal to call the guy.

He didn’t QUIT at the end of DKR. He changed his methods but the war goes on. He wasn’t sipping pina coladas with his hot young girlfriend on a beach in Europe.

I can understand this argument. However, in the context of the Nolan movies, the war (as laid out in Batman Begins) is mostly won. He doesn’t so much as quit as retire victorious. I think he would come back if he were needed.

Your point about Earth-2 Batman is well taken, but you had to go all the way back pre-Crisis to make it.

That’s mostly due to two factors 1. Difference in medium; serialized storytelling means you don’t have many attempts to write “the end”. 2. DKR (which came out within a year or two of Crisis) is held in such high regard that many/most comic writers see that as the endpoint for the character and don’t try their own.

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William O'Brien said on July 23rd, 2012 at 11:49 am

Further, it’s not really explicit that the death of Robin was the sole factor in driving him to retirement – that Batman is aged, with heart problems.

Death of Rachel isn’t the sole factor in Rises. The events of TDK curtailed organized crime to the point he wasn’t needed until the new threat arose (plus it needed him to not be there to fully work).

And then of course there is the fact that in DKR, Old Bruce is actually training his successors and not just sipping tea in Italy with Selina Kyle, having washed his hands of Gotham after a few parting gifts.

I think this mostly comes down to the fact that the difference in medium from comics to movies (and the difference in mentality from Miller to Nolan) let Nolan create a story where Batman gets to win his war. Nolan wanted to tell a story with hope. That’s not a bad thing.

And as much as you might like to ignore Dark Knight Strikes Back.. it’s still there.

Yes, 15 years later DC paid Miller a bunch of money to make a sequel. The very act of making a sequel to End of Batman means you have to undo the End of Batman. That doesn’t change the intent of the original work.

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William O'Brien said on July 23rd, 2012 at 11:56 am

Ah, and Earth-2 Batman – I forgot to address that point. Earth-2 Batman is another version of Batman changing his method – he became the Police Commissioner. He had Robin and Huntress doing the ‘Young person’s work’ in the capes and tights. Batman doesn’t quit. He finds some way to fight.

Rises Batman doesn’t need to become Commissioner because his friend Gordon is still there, organized crime is gone, and the only supercriminals are dead or locked up. He has Blake to do the young person’s work and carry on what fight is needed.

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BenjaminJB said on July 23rd, 2012 at 11:58 am

Cyrus,

It’s a bad sign when things happen because that delivers some message rather than because that’s what those characters would do in those situations

Just to be clear, I’m not saying that the characters have to do X for the movie’s theme or message. I’m saying “acting thematically” is here the same as “acting in character.”

For instance, Foley doesn’t just put on his dress blues because that makes a clear statement about his thematic role in the film; he gets into his dress blues because he’s been convinced, yadda yadda yadda–and part of what convinces him is the themes playing out in his life.

(Foley may be a terrible example because I never really got a good sense of him as a character–he’s more like a foil to Gordon and Blake than a real character. But I think we can see how someone could take the choice to dress up for a special occasion in a thematically appropriate way–not because the author was making him, but because it was his own organic choice as a character.)

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@William – And you seem to suffer the same misunderstanding of Batman as Nolan – he doesn’t just take down mobsters and freaks. There are still people being murdered in Gotham City, and other little boys ending up as orphans.

And Rises Batman may not have needed to become commissioner to continue fighting – hell, he didn’t even need to stay Batman. As Alfred pointed out, Bruce Wayne’s resources and knowledge are more necessary than his body. There are many ways to fight. Sipping tea with Selina isn’t one.

So Rises Batman just gives up. Unlike every other depiction of Batman.

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Hell, even Earth-2 Batman wasn’t totally content just doing good as the Commissioner – you might recall that he died in costume.

Batman is driven. Without that drive, he’s just Billionaire Ninja Commando.

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Mike Zeidler said on July 23rd, 2012 at 1:26 pm

Death of Rachel isn’t the sole factor in Rises. The events of TDK curtailed organized crime to the point he wasn’t needed until the new threat arose (plus it needed him to not be there to fully work).

Organized crime was curtailed, but who cares? Organized crime didn’t kill Thomas & Martha Wayne. I find it incredibly hard to believe that Bruce would give up while *any* crime was being perpetrated within the confines of Gotham.

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Mike Zeidler said on July 23rd, 2012 at 1:30 pm

I also found it odd that a ‘penniless’ man could give his former home to a municipality and force them into the care and upkeep of it. The orphans already had a building, they needed money to staff it and provide supplies. How does a massive, empty house that cannot be sold help them?

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Can I make the point that fighting forever and never giving up is kind of a prerequisite in a medium that never ends the story of the Batman? Whereas if you’re making, say, a film trilogy, it’s generally considered good form to provide an ending for your story?

If the Bruce sighting wasn’t studio mandated, then Nolan’s vision of the Batman is not one of a MAN, but rather a MANTLE. Nolan’s Bruce Wayne talked about a day when the city would no longer need the Batman… heck, wasn’t that in the first movie? At the end of Rises, he’s physically broken, bankrupt… but finally victorious over the League of Shadows *and* organized crime. He has given his mantle to a successor (did anyone else catch the reference to the Untold Story of the Batman there, btw?), given Gordon a new signal, and made his exit. Because he won his battles and he CAN’T be Batman anymore. This is not the Ur-Batman of that Planetary crossover, this is a Batman who wanted to take down organized crime and clean up Gotham. He did that, retired, and then came back to save the city from the League before retiring again.

There’s a difference between giving up and knowing that it’s time to lay down your burdens and move on, and that’s kind of one of the themes Nolan was dealing with here.

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SilverHammerMan said on July 23rd, 2012 at 1:53 pm

Am I the only one who was annoyed by the fact that Batman came back twice in the same movie? First he comes out of retirement, then he gets his ass kicked, climbs out of a hole, and comes back again. The review over at The Escapist made a fairly strong argument that it was wasted space. I guess it establishes that Batman is indomitable and will keep coming back, but c’mon, it’s the same damn story twice in one movie.
And also, given that Blake was set up as the new Batman, how exactly is he supposed to do that competently? I mean yeah, he’s got the cave and Batman’s old gear, but none of the essential resources that allow Batman to be Batman; He doesn’t have Alfred to patch him up discretely, he doesn’t have the financial resources to buy new gear and even repair old ones (unless you assume that Bruce will be secretly financing his operation) he doesn’t have a good cover ID (A hero cop who quit the force seems like a pretty obvious suspect for a vigilante) and finally he has no training whatsoever. He might have hisd moral integrity and fighting spirit, but he’s a cop, not a kung-fu master, it just doesn’t seem feasible that he could fight crime as a non-lethal vigilante. Maybe I’m over analyzing, but come on, setting up a character as the next Batman is the kind of thing that fans are going to over analyze.

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re neutron bombs: Quite the contrary, neutron bombs are all about the fall out. They’re designed to produce high burst of neutron energy which will kill all living things & produce a lot of fall out all out of proportion to the actual yield of the blast. Their purpose is to kill populations but leave infrastructures intact; however when one is speaking of a 4.5 megaton blast range, no way could Bats bet it far enough from Gotham City in that short a period of time to not end up killing thousands in the blast radius.

And the whole point of fusion energy is to not have big hunks of near-critical nuclear material sitting around…

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hoorayforicecream said on July 23rd, 2012 at 2:53 pm

I just found the criminal plot to be way too elaborate to be believable. They have to steal Wayne’s fingerprints to make fake trades to drive the company into bankruptcy to get the fusion reactor to make a nuclear bomb to hold the city hostage for six months before destroying it.

Why not just get a nuclear bomb elsewhere? Or just place more of those cement bombs all over the place? If they can explode a bunch of cement bombs simultaneously to bury the police force (which was just a weird plan to begin with. I mean, Bane didn’t even want them to be found down there, which is why he killed the goons that brought Gordon to him in the first place, but it was their plan to lure the police into the sewers eventually?) and take out the bridges, why not just do more of that?

The whole thing just like one big rube goldberg device that was really unnecessary. It’s really a testament to the actors’ performances that the plot threads didn’t fray immediately.

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Jason B. said on July 23rd, 2012 at 3:09 pm

Thank you for this. Thank you, so so so much.

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I was fine with most of the so-called problems. It’s clear the Batman universe is slightly different than ours.

But I was confused by the first part of the movie. Batman’s girlfriend is killed by a sociopath and he hides out for years? That’s not how Bruce Wayne handles grief, even as established in the previous movies. Batman doesn’t mope. Batman overreacts on a grand scale and tries to prevent anything like that from ever happening to anyone ever again.

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Agreed on wishing they’d cas a latino/hispanic actor for Bane; Tom Hardy was fantastic, but hearing that Sean Connery-esque British voice comeing out of that character was weird. I would’ve loved to see Javier Bardem or maybe Benicio Del Toro take a crack at him. I do think they got Bane’s character almost perfectly right, however; a shame they had to go ahead make him Talia’s lackey regardless. I saw that coming, but it was disappointing that he essentially ended up hired muscle once again (unless we’re to believe he came up with the entire scheme her behalf). Despite that, however, speaking of getting characters right, I was very pleased to see Talia turn out ot be the prime mover behind events; this would make Jonathan Nolan the second writer after Grant Morrison to really give her her due.

Also, Bane is the best Bond villain since Sean Bean in Goldeneye, and the opening of the film was the best Bond cold open since The World Is Not Enough. Funny how that works.

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The Unstoppable Gravy Express said on July 23rd, 2012 at 3:49 pm

Am I the only one who was annoyed by the fact that Batman came back twice in the same movie? First he comes out of retirement, then he gets his ass kicked, climbs out of a hole, and comes back again.

Ah but the first time he came back, his “heart wasn’t in it” (to oversimplify), hence his defeat. He didn’t REALLY come back until he got himself out of the pit. That’s why we don’t get a full-blown rendition of the Batman theme until that point.

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So my question, on giving it much further thought: Why did the older cop say to the rookie, “Oh, you’re in for a show tonight, kid!” as though he’s seen the Batman in action plenty of times and is thrilled to have him back kicking criminal ass on the streets of Gotham…when in practical terms, from what we’ve seen of this version of Batman from the previous two movies, what he’s generally known for in Gotham is semi-accidentally destroying tons of cop cars in high speed chases? Wouldn’t his realistic reaction be, “Oh, crap, kid, get your seat belt on!” 🙂

And on thinking about it, the movie states only that Batman wasn’t publicly seen for 8 years after the death of Harvey Dent, and that Bruce Wayne has been a recluse. If you want to, you can assume that Bruce was acting as Batman during that period right up until his injuries became too severe to allow it, and that the police simply covered up their inability to catch him by saying, “He vanished.”

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My main problem was that Bane and the League held Gotham hostage for five months. I have trouble picturing any American president allowing a terrorist group to hold a major city for that long, fusion bomb or no. If they had implemented that plan and had it for a week or so until Batman saved Gotham, I would believe it.

Can you imagine Fox News (since you mentioned it) going on about how the president is bowing down to terrorists? Obama, Bush, whoever would look like a pussy if they didn’t act on that.

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Wait, THOSE were the problems that nerds had with this movie? Nerds are kind of silly. He says under the gaze of his Mr. Spock collector’s plate.

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Actual, serious grumble about the movie: It would have been a lot better if Bruce had figured out for himself that it was the safety line that was holding him back, by making him careless because he wasn’t afraid to die, instead of having a character airlifted into the plot to give him his climactic revelation. (Which, as noted, was a very real problem with the movie…since there was more plot than even three hours could fill, many of the things that Bruce should have found out for himself wound up being imparted to him very unrealistically. “Bruce, as your butler, I’m very aware of the movements of the League of Shadows, and I can tell you that Bane was excommunicated from their ranks.”)

On a lighter note, I just realized what makes Bane’s voice make total sense. The scientist who designed his weird mask-dealie built in a voice modulator, and was a huge fan of New Series Sontarans. “This bomb is NUCLEAR! It is MOBILE! It produces huge quantities of LACTIC FLUID!”

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@Clambone:

Agreed; once you get as rich as Bill Gates/Bruce Wayne, as a practical matter it becomes more or less impossible to go completely broke — purely because it’s more or less impossible to park that much wealth in fewer than forty or fifty places at the very least. And Bane’s high-risk derivative trickery would also, in any realistic context, been short-circuited by the various Wall Street protocols that halt trading in a given stock when too much of it is moving too fast. (I could be convinced that Bane & his minions could either cripple Wayne Enterprises’ cash flow or drain away most of Bruce’s readily accessible liquid assets via a sufficiently clever comic-book handwave, but pulling off both at once just couldn’t be done.)

As for the Justice League, clearly Nolan’s Batverse doesn’t have any other actual superheroes running around in it; if it did, Green Lantern, Superman, and/or various other folks would certainly have attempted to intervene in Bane’s five-month occupation of Gotham City.

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My biggest problem with it, aside from the lego spinal surgery, was the pit escape.

Here’s Batman, diminished, yes, but Batman all the same. He’s stuck in a pit that’s a few hundred feet deep. They have a rope suspended half-way up the pit. Could they not figure out how to make a grappling hook?

Again, he’s freakin’ Batman. You think he didn’t look at the fact that they had twice as much rope as they needed to go half-way up , and said, “Hey. Why don’t we just throw the rope over the edge of the pit and climb up?”

Rope ladder technology being a strange and distant secret.

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As for the Justice League, clearly Nolan’s Batverse doesn’t have any other actual superheroes running around in it; if it did, Green Lantern, Superman, and/or various other folks would certainly have attempted to intervene in Bane’s five-month occupation of Gotham City.

There was actually a short story addressing that point during No Man’s Land; basically, Bats showed Clark that Gotham had to bootstrap itself back from the depths.

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“His wife left him and took the kids to Cleveland – you think the whole Dent thing might’ve played into it?”

i think the Dent thing is exactly why she did that – after seeing her husband have to praise the man who was going to murder her and her children every year, she couldn’t stand to be in the same city as him anymore.

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MonkeyWithTypewriter said on July 24th, 2012 at 1:03 pm

Random DKR remarks

I enjoyed the Killer Croc reference.

How did he fly the autoplane with the bomb out? Did he switch planes really fast somewhere?

What ever happened to the Narrows? You know, the little island that has Arkham on it? And I’d have loved to see Dent presiding on the court, even if he IS dead. Oh, and bring back Zzaz to give Robin a mini-supervillain to fight.

Others have made my “Blake isn’t trained enough to be Batman 2” gripes, but I will also say that his fall into the pit wasn’t that affecting because we’d already seen that he wasn’t 100%. If Bane broke into the Manor and crippled him and THEN he had to climb out and get suited up, that would have been much more interesting.

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Scavenger said on July 24th, 2012 at 2:21 pm

SilverHammerMan said:

Am I the only one who was annoyed by the fact that Batman came back twice in the same movie? First he comes out of retirement, then he gets his ass kicked, climbs out of a hole, and comes back again. … c’mon, it’s the same damn story twice in one movie.

A thousand times this! My single, #1 problem with the film.

You do TDKR’s coming out of retirement story. OR you do Knightfall’s he is beaten and broken and has to rebuild story. You don’t do both in the same 3 hours.

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Scavenger said on July 24th, 2012 at 2:30 pm

I give the movie credit for coming up with an actual explanation for the No Man’s Land Edict, rather than the comic books’ “uhm…because?”

*****************************

John Seavy says,

Actual, serious grumble about the movie: It would have been a lot better if Bruce had figured out for himself that it was the safety line that was holding him back, by making him careless because he wasn’t afraid to die

It would have been a lot better if it wasn’t obvious that rope was too short to let someone make the jump. Or that it didn’t take an hour for the @#@#$Damn Batman to figure it out.

On a lighter note, I just realized what makes Bane’s voice make total sense. The scientist who designed his weird mask-dealie built in a voice modulator,

Eddie Izzard does a routine about a James Bond villain who’s voice modulator is stuck on multi-accent demo mode. THATS what I was reminded of whenever Bane spoke.

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JCHandsom said on July 24th, 2012 at 2:43 pm

@Scavenger: Except he didn’t come back twice, he only came back ONCE. The point was already made above but it bears repeating; Bruce may have put the suit on after a long period of inactivity twice, but the first time he was clearly out of his element, doing it more out of a lack of purpose than thinking he was the only one capable of saving Gotham.

There is a telling scene that happens right after the scene where Selina disappears in front of him (which, by the way, is another example of Bruce wearing the suit but not really being Batman) in which Bruce, in the suit without the helmet, lamely reassures Alfred that he is up to the task (“The cops can’t do it, because only I, the BATMAN, have the moral authority to use my tools and techniques without abusing them, nevermind the fact that I kinda did that in TDK. Sure Bane is really strong and fast, but I’ll just fight harder and faster, because I’m BATMAN.”)

The first fight with Bane breaks through his delusion, pun not intended, and the pit scenes remold him into Batman. Which is why, again as stated above, we hear the full Batman theme for the first time in the movie when he climbs out, signifying the Batman’s return.

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“As for the Justice League, clearly Nolan’s Batverse doesn’t have any other actual superheroes running around in it; if it did, Green Lantern, Superman, and/or various other folks would certainly have attempted to intervene in Bane’s five-month occupation of Gotham City.”

If I recall at some point Nolan said something to the effect that if there were other superheroes, Bruce wouldn’t have become Batman. He’s Batman to strike fear into criminals but more importantly to inspire decent people to stand up. If Superman existed and was already doing that, Bruce wouldn’t need to.

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Jonathan L. Miller said on July 24th, 2012 at 7:45 pm

Honestly, the only major issue I had with the movie (other than the predictability surrounding both Talia and “Robin”‘s identities) was the whole “how does he get back to Gotham” thing. He’s somewhere in Northern Africa. There’s a week (I think?) until the bomb goes off. Two big plot points have been established: 1. Bruce is basically broke and 2. Gotham is cut off and completely inaccessible, comings and goings are monitored, etc. Given both of these things, how does Bruce get back to Gotham? Wouldn’t that be important for the audience to know? In a semi-realistic setting (even if you emphasize the “semi”), it comes off as “I’m Batman. I’m magic.” Which kind of deflates the movie a bit and severely shook my suspension of disbelief. (When he tells Selina that he has a way for her to get out of Gotham, I thought, “Oh, ok, so this is when Nolan will show us how he got there.” But no, it just involved blowing up the cars blocking the tunnel.)

That being said, I did enjoy the movie and it was too long. But there were other parts that could have been shorter to give us more of an explanation of how Batman is smarter than Bane/Talia’s contingency plans.

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@Jonathan L. Miller: He snuck on board an airplane by posing as an air marshal, using his stealth and computer-savvy skills to get to a place where he could alter passenger manifests. He then stole some cold-weather SCUBA gear from the military encampment just outside of Gotham, and went in via the river under cover of darkness. Bane’s men were far more interested in making sure nobody escaped than in making sure nobody entered; they had their bomb threat to ensure that the military didn’t come in force, and who’d be crazy enough to sneak onto an island that was in the grip of a warlord with a nuke?

That’s the sort of thing that would have been actually much less interesting than you imagine to show, basically. 🙂

Back to Bane, though…on thinking about it, I don’t think he was just Talia’s lackey. Her partner, yes; but when Talia says that she wants Batman alive, it literally takes only until she’s in the room for him to countermand her order and (attempt to) kill Batman. He’s clearly an equal to her, although obviously there are depths there that we’ll never know (just like we’ll never know what Bane did to be sentenced to the pit, or what changed him from the only man with compassion enough to save a child into the ruthless monster we see here.)

Which is, actually, I think what people are really articulating when they talk about Bane being relegated to a lackey at the end: There’s no closure. Bane was the one who broke Batman, Bane was the one who imprisoned Batman, Bane was the one who savaged Gotham…but in the end, he’s brushed aside with a comedy death so we can focus on Talia, who really gets brought in out of nowhere for the last half-hour. We’re emotionally invested in seeing Bane’s comeuppance, not Talia’s.

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Dan Coyle said on July 25th, 2012 at 1:26 am

Like MGK’s Lost apologia, I ain’t buying this defense, but then again, like the lost apologia, it really wasn’t written to counter the haters, was it?

I will say this, though: the biggest flaw in the film is not seeing the world reaction to Gotham’s suffering. The League of Shadow’s plan is to use the destruction of Gotham to start a domino effect that will throw the world into chaos. A shot of cities rioting, paranoia in the streets, a growing Bane cult over the five months would have gone a long way towards selling gotham’s importance and confirming the League’s true goal, to foment chaos. Otherwise Bane and Talia are just blowing the city up for the sheer fun of it.

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Dan Coyle said on July 25th, 2012 at 1:28 am

But maybe you can answer this question: what is the point of Foley’s arc, and how does it add or subtract to the film? Does someone on the production team really like Matthew Modine or some shit?

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But, Dan, the League isn’t ABOUT chaos. That’s the Joker.

Ras? His dream was burning Gotham to the ground as penalty for its sins. And Talia and Bane wanted to honor his dream.

The world’s reaction doesn’t matter to them until they blow up Gotham, and then they want “Oookay. So, this corruption thing? I guess it’s a bad idea”.

I mean, to the extent they care about anything beyond revenge on Batman and his city.

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I’ve always worked on the assumption that The Joker rose to power simply because Ra’s failed to purge Gotham, and his existence is what made Talia and Bane willing to finish the job.

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@John Seavey: This. If I were Batman, I’d be pissed that the guy didn’t tell me earlier that the secret was not wearing the rope. “My back’s been broken and punched back into shape like THREE TIMES NOW!”

I guess he was waiting for Batman to figure it out himself. Alas.

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nolans batman is a dullard compared to canon batman.

most tech and operational props were brought to the table for his use…canon batman is a superhero because he is a supergenius, not once does nolans batman convince that he is one of those(sorry, but the cellphone sonar and bat autopilot were complete asspulls, theres no scripted precedent to justify nolans batman filling what would be plot holes apart from desperate necessity…)

he fights like an imbecile. not like batman. this is especially obvious in DKR, and warrants a standing ‘wtf nolan’ for allowing him to fight like an inbred hillbilly, and if your being honest with yourself, you know this is the hard truth…i dont give a good fuck about the plot, because its shite. completely facile shite, so no, trolling batmans superhuman combat ability is a shit plan, designed to make bane look better. Bane could have stayed just as competent, just as devastating, but nolan didnt have to crap on batmans brains and capability, until he looks like some fucking lemming, with no combat sense, no common sense and no ability to convert damage. Thanks chris. canon batman was beaten by bane because he’d just singlehandedly reimprisoned all of arkham asylum, nolans one lost because he fights like shit.

Bane is not a putz to be blasted away by catwoman when inconvenient to the plot, nolan set him up, then ruined him to give a desperate extra credibility to ‘talia’ plus, where is the automatic segue between the bane who saves a child and him becoming a terrorist general willing to kill millions, isnt that something worthy of note? He desesrved more than just to be sacrificed for ‘talias’ twist…

Plus, this film seemed so full of bloated waste with so few moments of genuine emotional depth. I was amazed that so many scenes of ostensible emotion left me cold. I think its the suspect directional grounding… It needed to focus far more on keeping bane immediately important throughout and constantly in physical or emotional combat with batman. Because the dark knight did not rise fully, nor did bane, they got relegated. By ‘talia’, by blake(boring scripting there) and that fucking batwing crutch(to name 3 of many)…the scene with batman flying the bomb away looked like something out of family guy…all those scenes of ‘finding the bomb truck’…oh my GOD!!! Like others have said, this film survives based on ignoring all the ‘REALISTIC’ tactical responses, which in a film purported to be realistic, is fairly unforgivable.

Wtf is selina kyles background? Is it not important? Her skills are equal to batman…only a cat burglar? eff off…she needed to be ‘merc octuple’ agent with false allegiances to govts and blackmail data on all of them, the illegitemate son of bruces father and rahs al ghuls wife…fuck it, i dont care, just something more engaging than what we got…ie. she nicks shit and is pretty handly all round if she could just lay off the bitch juice…

michael caine, well done, good performance. aves.

bane, rich and filling! while the plot is not filleting your credibility.

bruce wayneman, shock at the films tittytwister was your finest hour…by far, i felt the pain. yes, you got trolled hard. ouch.

lucius…

miranda, you are a pleasing bitch, long may you be ‘the thorn’now die, you emtionally useless being.

blake, i tried hard to enjoy your performance, stop trusting anyone but rian johnson.

scarecrow, you need to have a heart to heart with the joker

modinecop, in the words of avid merrion’i dont know what he is!?’

Nolan! Nolan! Chris! Chris! Nolan! NO. dont do it again, your best movies are the the ones you scratch build, you are the opposite of zach snyder…i hope you have a happy bouncing superbaby between you!

that is all.

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mygif

fuckstiches.

gordons alive!?…wait, that was the last film…you are genuine…its just a shame youre sinking in the goop of others…well done for trying.

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mygif

The problems with Casablance run beyond DeGaulle’s authority to write letters of transit. As Roger Ebert points out (he did the commentary on the anniversary edition DVD I have), Rick admit to Louie at one point that the letters aren’t bulletproof: If the Nazis want to stop him leaving, they’ll find a way. And there’s absolutely no security at the airport checking the letters.
Despite which I love the film. If I had to sit their and tell myself “suspend your disbelief!” that would be a sign it didn’t work.
Denny O’Neil said some years back that he believes Bruce can walk away: He put on the cowl to deal with the trauma of his parent’s death, and someday, he’ll be able to take it off.
The nuclear bomb being Perfectly Safe did make me wince. It’s hard to see any way Bats made it out of there.
I still liked the movie. Better than the second, in fact.

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