On the Twitters, Tim O’Neil and I had a discussion/argument about the use of the Mandarin in Iron Man 3. Tim (that link is to his Mandarin essay) is a huge fan of the Mandarin, considers him to be Tony Stark’s definitive archenemy, and thinks the movie did wrong by him. I am a huge fan of the Mandarin, consider him to be Tony Stark’s definitive archenemy, and think the movie handled him in the only way the movies can do it. SPOILERS FOLLOW FOR IRON MAN 3 SO STOP READING NOW IF YOU DON’T WANT TO BE SPOILED AND STUFF.
I realize this might make explaining why we’re arguing about this a little esoteric, but bear with me. Both Tim and I love the Mandarin. He is a great character. In the movie, the Mandarin is initially a terrorist warlord played by Ben Kingsley – which might make you go “huh,” because the Mandarin in the comics is Chinese – but rather than have it be white-washing, the movie decides that Ben Kingsley’s Mandarin is a false front, a total fiction created by the cynical Aldridge Killian of A.I.M., in order to sell weapons to the government. Ben Kingsley’s Mandarin is actually a junkie actor named Trevor, and by the end of the movie Killian proclaims that he is the Mandarin. So, to sum up, Movie Mandarin is nothing like Comics Mandarin.
Here’s the thing. The Mandarin is, let us be honest, racially problematic. Even with numerous talented comics creators doing their damnedest to reclaim him from the character’s totally racist origins, you can still define the Mandarin, entirely honestly and fairly, as “an evil Chinese warlord.” Because that is what he is. You can shake him up a little, tinker with his motivations a bit (later writers have divided him from Chinese culture to turn him into a self-imagined ruler of the “proper China” that really only exists in his head), but the Mandarin is evil, Chinese, and a warlord. That doesn’t mean he has to be a racist cariacature, of course – after all, Chinese people can be evil just like white people can. But it does mean you have to be very careful in how you write him.
Tim’s position is that Movie Mandarin does Comics Mandarin a disservice in that Comics Mandarin is great, and I won’t rehash his reasons (go read his essay). My counterposition is that Iron Man 3 can be read quite acceptably as setup for Iron Man 4. (Granted, they might not run with this, but: the only major villains Tony has left are Ghost, Controller, and Living Laser. Okay, and Fin Fang Foom, but they’re not gonna do Fin Fang Foom.)
Think about it. We already know, from the movies, that the Ten Rings exist as a terrorist group in the Movie Marvelverse; Killian appropriated some of their imagery for his “Mandarin.” People who culturally appropriate one thing will generally appropriate many things instead, as a rule; it would certainly follow that there is an actual Mandarin out there in the world, one who really does understand the value of subtlety (which Killian bragged about, and then immediately dropped the moment he felt like it) and who more than likely was either amused or irritated with these penny-ante second-raters using his name, possibly both. A man who has the one thing it has been made clear Tony really fears: something Tony cannot account for or control (i.e. the alien technology in his rings). And a man who not only has a connection to the men who stole his name, but – through the Ten Rings organization he most likely controls – is directly responsible for turning a rich wastrel genius into Iron Man.
This slow-burn introduction would make the “real” Mandarin all the more impressive when he does show up in the movies. It immediately puts him in a position of superiority, which is not easy for Hollywood to accomplish for a visual minority in the first place, but I think this is the only way you can do it. It makes him, essentially, into Iron Man’s equivalent of Loki: the villain you can’t simply kill off because he knows too much and in the future you might need him. I don’t know if the Marvel movies will go this route, but – it works.
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Spoilers follow.
The problem with this theory is that the film’s ending gives the movieverse character kind of a sense of finality (what with him blowing up his suits and removing the generator from his chest). It might still be fairly easy for him to suit up in a functional sense, but from a thematic/storytelling perspective, it seems like it would be a step backwards.
End spoilers.
The problem with this theory is that Robert Downey Jr.’s contract ended with Iron Man 3, and if he goes then there won’t be an Iron Man 4 in the near future. You don’t foreshadow a movie that won’t exist. (This is also why the movie has the sense of finality Mitchell Hundred mentioned.)
“but from a thematic/storytelling perspective, it seems like it would be a step backwards.”
I think it’s actually a step forwards. Taking out the shrapnel and removing the arc reactor from Tony’s chest means that they’re cutting out the prospect of reusing the stories they’ve already used, unless they do something incredibly contrived to re-injure Tony (which would turn Iron Man into Archer, which I’m not totally opposed to, but that’s neither here nor there). I still don’t think the part where he blows up $Texas worth of armors to make a fireworks show makes any damn sense, but I felt that removing the shrapnel and the arc reactor was a pretty bold move and it made sense. (Why would he not be able to remove it? We can pull shrapnel out of people with actual, real-life technology right now. The idea that a supergenius living in the Marvel universe, a universe that’s jam-packed with supergeniuses, wouldn’t find a way to remove some shrapnel was always kind of ridiculous.)
Ahem.
The Crimson Dynamo.
(And NO, movie Whiplash doesn’t. Fucking. Count.)
Anyway, I can’t imagine they’re even thinking about Iron Man 4 at this point, for three reasons:
1) The Avengers sequel is going to be way more important to them than another Iron Man flick at this point.
2) They probably would prefer not discussing salary demands with RDJ for as long as possible.
Marvel will continue to make Iron Man movies for as long as they can and they remain profitable. And if the openings for Iron Man 3 are any indication, they could remain very profitable for a while longer. Why? Because Iron Man is one of the two types of superheroes moviegoers really want to see. Even in high-suspense scenes, RDJ as Tony Stark remains funny and engaging. (The other major type people want to see is Bale’s Batman — serious business.)
I really think Marvel could make good money with a couple of lower-budget movies. Maybe a more conventional action movie starring Black Widow and Hawkeye.
They’re wont be an Iron Man film Til Phase 4 at the earliest, and it won’t star RDJ?
RDJ is nearly 50. He’s rich, can choose what films he makes, has incredible power over said films, and has rebooted his career. He’ll also be nearing 60 after Phas 3 is finished, and doesn’t need the money or clout because he has both.
Methinks he’ll do Avengers 2 and 3, and then (after ten years or so in the role) give it to someone else.
RDJ told Ellen DeGeneres he was renegotiating his contract for Iron Man.
No one else could play Tony Stark. Ever.
The problem with this theory is that Robert Downey Jr.’s contract ended with Iron Man 3, and if he goes then there won’t be an Iron Man 4 in the near future. You don’t foreshadow a movie that won’t exist. (This is also why the movie has the sense of finality Mitchell Hundred mentioned.)
RDJ had, last time I checked (though I admit I may be wrong) a six movie contract with Marvel. So far he’s been Iron Man in three solo movies, the Avengers, and a bit part in the Hulk movie where he antagonizes General Ross. That leaves one more movie he’s on tap for before his contract is up which will most likely be the Avengers sequel.
Past that, RDJ has mentioned in interviews that he really likes playing Tony Stark so it doesn’t seem like he’s getting tired of the character and Marvel Studios would have to have an apocalyptic collective brain failure if they wrote him off even if his contract did go up because RDJ’s Tony Stark/Iron Man is probably their single biggest put-butts-in-seats draw they have. They’re going to keep making movies with Iron Man in them as long as they feasibly can because A). people like Iron Man movies and B). Marvel Studios likes big fat sacks full of money.
Beyond any of that the movie also ends with Tony Start reaffirming to himself that he is Iron Man…that he is the hero, not the 40-something suits of armor or the battery in his chest. There’s a sense of closure in a narrative arc sense but I don’t get the “this is the last adventure of Tony Stark” feeling out of this that other people are apparently coming away with. Even in the comics surely at some point, maybe even multiple points now, Tony Stark has to have dug the shrapnel out of his chest, blown up his suits/had them blown up…hell, how many companies has he gone through by this point, half a dozen?…and yet he still winds up in a flying suit of power armor repulsoring the fuck out of dudes in goofy outfits.
I said it in my own review, that Tony’s greatest weapon is his mind. The suits are the result of that.
RDJ has made such a signature performance that I can’t see anyone else playing Tony.
And no Fin Fang Foom? Really?
I actually liked the way the Mandarin ended up being portrayed in the movie: the whole idea of an arch-nemesis gets rudely deconstructed by pointing out such a garish villain in the real world is no better than a strung-out two-bit actor vying for attention. Meanwhile the real threats are the greedy and ambitious who use people like disposable lab rats. You’ll notice Killian himself becomes just another strung-out two-bit actor hopped up on explosive steroids the second he ignores his rule of “anonymity” and acts like a comic book villain.
They can use Fing Fang Foom
Avengers had those Chitauri troop carrier things that were kind of reptillian. Make Fing Fang Foom a living version of them
I really can’t say I agree with your assessment. I honestly felt this movie was a mess, and didn’t care for the Armor fight at the end, but I realize I may be in the minority.
My major annoyance is the bizarre alchemy where they took aspects of Extremis and the Mandarin to create what amounts to The Melter. Granted the best version of the Melter anyone’s ever seen, but still the Melter.
Was I the only one who noticed at the very end of the credits that they very clearly printed, a la 007, “Tony Stark Will Return”?
I put a (more inside) link in for the spoilers, btw.
Tony Stark will return in Avengers 2: that much is a given.
I’m a little sad that there weren’t many larger nods to the rest of the universe, mainly that AIM is an offshoot of Hydra.
Iron Man 4: The Rise of Hydra
Iron Man 4: I Gotta Put the Glowy Thingee BACK Into My Chest?
Sure, they could do that, but Iron Man has a surprisingly deep villain bench to pull from. Spymaster, Madame Masque, Fin Fang Foom, Titanium Man, Ultimo. MODOK (that one I’d like to see). The Melter.
They’ll probably go with Madame Masque.
Iron Man 4: I Gotta Put the Glowy Thingee BACK Into My Chest?
The eternal return to status quo of comic books aside, it always struck me as a bit of a contrivance that Tony, the super-smart engineer, wasn’t cramming like a half-dozen of those miniaturized arc reactors into every suit the way he keeps losing power and depleting the reactor KEEPING SHRAPNEL FROM KILLING HIM AMONG OTHER THINGS.
I mean, I understand that him keeping the reactor in his chest was largely as a tangible reminder of his fuckups and his commitment to do better…there’s a symbolic aspect to the whole thing, you can’t tell me that Tony Stark couldn’t figure out a way to get some shrapnel out of his chest or pay the world’s best heart surgeon to do it for him…but you’d think that after the sixth time that he had to blow all his juice on some big clutch attack or something that he’d be like “wait, why am I always using the reactor in my chest to do all of this, there’s enough space in this suit for plenty of these things.”
For those who haven’t heard, there is a cut of the film that is exclusively aired in China, that features a number of Chinese characters. I am very interested in seeing that cut. Maybe there will be hints of a real Mandarin.
@Bill: I was sort of thinking Tony’s ex-GF was going to BE Madame Masque.
One of the best lines of a really poor comic:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_3IfqL9DOqoo/Rq3fHBrkJUI/AAAAAAAABBY/4x_2aXuRPIA/s400/illuminati-2.JPG
Tim’s position is that Movie Mandarin does Comics Mandarin a disservice in that Comics Mandarin is great, and I won’t rehash his reasons (go read his essay). My counterposition is that Iron Man 3 can be read quite acceptably as setup for Iron Man 4.
I don’t even think you need to go that route. Even without an Iron Man 4, this is the best they could do with the Yellow Peril racist roots of the Mandarin – blow them up by disconnecting it completely from China or even truly Asia at all. A Middle-Eastern Ten Rings Mandarin is only going to be the same “Yellow Peril” racist idea, just transferred to the new area of the world that terrifies us because it’s different. An American Mandarin that is essentially the same character only white would have been a whitewashing that certainly would have generated ire. The only other option would be to ignore the Mandarin entirely (which, frankly, is where I probably would have gone with it) and do something else.
(In fact I would have done something completely different because I would have had Killian essentially creating MODOK in this, and his super-soldiers would of course have been mini-MODOKs instead of the Extremis option they went with. Because MODOK. Maybe not flying giant-head MODOK because we can’t expect movie-goers to appreciate everything wonderful about comic books, but a MODOK could be made for the movieverse, and Killian’s origin would have been a good fit for it.)
Also when you’re listing his remaining villains, you are neglecting that they clearly could take Ultron’s origin away from Hank Pym and give it to Stark (where in the movie-verse it clearly belongs). The creepy bit in the bedroom this movie screams Ultron to me.
Spoilers, naturally
The films theme seems to be:
Tony makes the suits, not the other way around. He is Iron Man, because he is able to create something like the Iron Man suit, not because he has access to one.
From the first film, because of his condition, he “needs” to be Iron Man. His suit (well, the thing in his chest) was necessary for him to live. At the end of the movie, he not only gives up his suits, but fixes his condition. From that point forward, he can be Iron Man because he wants to, not because he needs to.
This is paralleled with how he overcomes his anxiety. Early in the film, he is a wreck because he is compulsively working on his suits. It is an obsession. He gets a bit worse when his suit fails him. He is obsessing over not having the suit when he needs it. However, the kid pointing out to him that he is the Mechanic is what snaps him out of it. Learning that “the power was in him all along”, to get cliche, is a big deal. He can tinker as a hobby, instead of a compulsion. He can make non-suit stuff that also helps him.
I liked the movie, and think the twist worked well. Not every film needs multiple villains, and by pulling this trick, they avoided the Iron Man 2 situation of having a bit too much going on in the plot. Here, you have the Nolan Al Ghul twist (done in reverse, but also, not blatantly obvious), mixed with the Die Hard terrorism was just a red herring thing. I could see the scenario of using this to set up the real Mandarin. It would work for a fourth film, as it would be a new type of villain for the ‘post-trilogy’ Stark.
The trilogy has the same type of villain each time. The “evil versions of Tony” basically. Obadiah Stane is literally the “evil” half of Tony’s company, and the Iron Monger suit is a big evil version of Tony’s suit. Hammer is Tony as flamboyant playboy, while Whiplash is sort of like Tony in the cave. Killian and AIM, are the tinkerer/genius part of Tony. So each are the different traps that Tony could have fallen into. He could have been a ruthless business man, a completely shameless salesmen (willing to hawk defective products, or steal other people’s tech, etc), a bitter man stuck in his cave, or the scientist blinded to ethical implications of his own discoveries. He’s not a “complete” person for the first time at the end of the film.
So, they don’t need an Iron Man 4, but if they had one, they would need to change the dynamics. Where he has to go in terms of character development is questionable, so it may be a very different movie than the first three.
Am I the only one who really expected Killian’s young Dragon to be Zeke Stane, the way he is in the Extremis storyline? And I am saddened that the Hulkbuster didn’t get more love.
A movie-plot question: didn’t it seem way too easy that Tony shows up JUST when that soldier’s mom was turning over the file? I mean I know it’s just the plot, but come on. That’s a bit much.
Regarding the shrapnel being removed from Tony’s chest at the end, I very strongly got the impression that Tony installed the stabilized form of Extremis in himself, to make that possible. Extremis gave him the vastly improved healing capabilities presumably necessary to survive the removal of the shrapnel, and also to heal the giant hole in his chest where the arc reactor used to be.
If this is the case, then future movies will have a lot to experiment with, still along the Extremis line. E.g. what powers did Tony give himself, and what are the capabilities of Extremis in the MCU beyond the fire, strength, and healing we’ve already seen. Presumably, Tony would give himself a more personalized version of Extremis. If some version of the Extremis armor made an appearance, that would tie in nicely to the “I am Iron Man” line.
^I don’t think that’s likely because it breaks the MCU.
Stabilized Extremis is basically the Super Soldier Formula, which is the golden fleece of the MCU. If suddenly all SHIELD agents can have Wolverine’s healing, Thor’s strength, and melty fire powers, pretty much makes Shield slinging, arrow shooting, and cleavage baring moot.
@Evan: For those who haven’t heard, there is a cut of the film that is exclusively aired in China, that features a number of Chinese characters. I am very interested in seeing that cut. Maybe there will be hints of a real Mandarin.
Those were mostly for Chinese product placement to give known Chinese actors a larger part to appeal to the Chinese audience. I’d be astounded if they came within a few light years of anything related to the plot or any potential future story points.
Eh, the problem with this argument is that it assumes they can and will use the Mandarin again. I think that’s a pipe dream: not only did they salt the ground with this one, but they still have “Armor Wars”, Zeke Stane, and others as follow-ups to this. There really is no reason to go back to the Mandarin and consider him again.
As it stands, I enjoyed the movie and thought the twist was funny. However, I think that the movie would have been better had it played the Mandarin straight, making him a Killian “puppet” rather than a Killian creation. You do that, and you can reveal that the real Mandarin allowed Killian to use a proxy to throw people off of the real leader, and that he can now use the wonderful fact that he was a fact in the first place to cover up all his operations. But the movie did none of that, and I don’t think we are going to get anything like that in the future.
“…and that he can now use Killian’s deception to make everyone think he was an illusion in the first place.”
Sorry, dunno what happened when I wrote that the first time. o.0
Actually, I think what they did with Mandarin in this movie is really in line with what Tim O’Neil likes about the character. If Mandarin is supposed to represent the Other (to Iron Man’s American Exceptionalism), than what better way to do that than to make him a deliberate construction of the Other by an evil white guy? He’s fulfilling Mandarin’s thematic cachet, even if he’s not really the threat he is in the comics.
Introducing the real Mandarin would go against the major thematic statement this movie does with its plot twist- that there IS no Mandarin, that our biggest threat is not scraggly bearded foreign devils sitting in compounds randomly blowing up some of our civilians, but our own military industrial complex.
It’s honestly kind of brilliant.
And foreshadowing for the World Security Council setting up their own Dark Avengers – I mean they tried to blow up New York.
The real twist, for me, was having Max from Happy Endings randomly show up half way through the movie as comic relief in one scene.
I was really excited about Max making an appearance. He actually does an interview about his experience here: http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/JoshWildingNewsAndReviews/news/?a=79054
Gee…I thought the Ten Rings that we saw in parts 1 and 2 were being controlled by Killian too. That the whole point of 3 is that Tony finally confronts the guy who’s been dogging his heels for all these years.
Also, “Mandarin”, used colloquially, means “power behind the throne”, so Killian being the actual Mandarin is perfectly logical.
I thought this was a brilliant twist, honestly. Comic fans need to look past deviations from the comics and see whether it works or not. And this worked.
There’s Doom, I mean obviously he’s more of a FF villain (the definitive FF villain) but a soft intro in Iron Man 4 or the Avengers 2, would work well especially given his position in the Marvel U– he’s the best A3 villain I can think in terms of threat and depth.
Re: The Mandarian – IM3’s twist was a relief in that the Ben Kingsley Mandarin wasn’t especially interesting. However, it bothered me a little because it also meant there is no “real” Mandarin, which denies us the chance to see Marvel Studios give the character a much-needed overhaul. (I’m not a huge fan of the character, but I’m a sucker for writers retroactively justifying the importance of silly Silver Age nonsense.) Bird’s suggestion neatly solves the problem, and is along the lines of what I was thinking on my way out of the theater.
Re: Iron Man 4 – Of course it will happen, with or without RDJ. So will Iron Man 5, 6, 7, and 8, even if a couple of those movies are more reboot than sequel. You can argue that no one but RDJ can play Tony, but I think no one but Connery or Moore can play Bond, and there’s only been about eleventeen Bond movies made in defiance of my edict. Heart surgery didn’t stop the comics Iron Man, so I doubt it will stop the movie Iron Man.
The biggest problem with this idea is that you have to tell the producers that your villain for the next movie will be “The same guy, only more so.”
@The Gentleman Mummy — I think that is a feature, not a bug.
Something I’m surprised no one mentioned: Iron Man is funny.
To be more exact, the RDJ Hollywood version of the character is easily the funniest superhero in a movie, at least among Marvel or DC characters. Sure, lots of characters quip like he does, but even leaving every bit of banter aside, this Tony:
* Leaves Jeff Bridges to accept an award in his place because he’s too busy gambling;
* Puts a press conference on hold to go to Burger King;
* Slams himself into walls and through floors testing his armor;
* Puts showgirls in bikinis with an armor motif;
* Goes to a party in armor and gets drunk;
* Flies up to the roof of a donut shop and eats donuts while lounging in a giant donut;
* Figures out what Loki is doing because it’s what he would have done; and
* Thinks Bruce Banner is a therapist.
His villains so far have been played by Jeff Bridges, Sam Rockwell, and Mickey Rourke. With this history, having the Mandarin be a truly serious character would be a big departure.
I don’t think it’s that impossible to have a Chinese Mandarin and make it work (well it is now …). He’s a Chinese tycoon (Mandarin Industries is, say, the US branch), closely tied to the government, with tech Tony cannot figure out (as its Makluan based) and he’s filling the munitions-market gap created when Stark got out of the business. And, of course, he has some huge evil plan. Unless Chinese villains are inherently objectionable, I could see it.
@Isidra: Wall of Text boots Tim in the jumblies. It’s super effective!
@Scavenger: Agree with your first two points, but not the third. That will ALWAYS be relevant.
Tim McGaha – I removed that weird 200-line Isidra spam.
It would be entirely possible either to have Ben Kingsley back as the Mandarin–the comic-book, ring-slinging Mandarin–or someone else, via the simple expedient of actually bringing in the ten rings, and having them being inert… until someone decides to put them all on at once.
After the Marvel One-shot ‘All hail the king’, I must say, this was an incredibly good call. Well done, sir.