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mygif

This comic’s been hyped so much for really broadening the comics audience by upping diversity which is something that I one hundred percent get behind, but ultimately what I am most happy about, and that you said, is that it is from first page to last a good book.

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tickstander said on February 8th, 2014 at 12:20 pm

This weird idea that it isn’t okay to like a creative work BECAUSE it offers depictions of marginalised people in a way that isn’t offensive, BECAUSE it engages with important social issues, BECAUSE it is making an effort to tell stories in an ethical way… where did this idea come from? Why do we have to qualify our applause of ethical works with ‘BUT IT’S A REALLY GOOD STORY!!!’

Example; I’m a butch queer lady. I hardly ever see myself represented in television, in comic books, in movies… hell, in anything, in a way that isn’t deeply insulting. So when I find a work that has a queer lady in it, and it portrays her in a way that isn’t deeply insulting… honestly, I don’t give the tiniest FUCK if it doesn’t have a ‘good story.’ A good story is nice, sure. But when you’re starved for representation, a good story is parsley.

idk. I bring this up because I have actually had straight people bitch me out for telling them that I like a book or a movie JUST BECAUSE it has queer characters. They get so incredibly offended by this, the idea that I might derive enjoyment from nothing more than seeing myself existing in the world of fiction, this blessing that they’ve taken for granted all their lives.

So I wouldn’t actually be bothered if Ms Marvel sucked. It’s THERE, in the midst of a sea of white, white, white superhero books. Its mere existence is heroic. If nasty little white fanboys have an issue with that, maybe they shouldn’t have created the problem in the first place.

‘…it’s well-written and amazingly drawn by Adrian Alphona and Ian Herring and it really made me want to see what happens in the next issue. And ultimately, that’s what you should want out of your comics on a monthly basis…’

Yeah, that’s what I SHOULD want. And if I lived in a society that didn’t constantly tell women like me how worthless and ugly and boring we are, maybe that’s what I WOULD want.

But I don’t.

When representation is so incredibly hard to come by, good art and good writing are luxuries.

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mygif

“through to her Avengers/My Little Pony fanfic (which has almost 1000 upvotes on freakingcool.com)”

At least 100 of those votes were from Dr. Doom (and various Doombots).

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mygif

@tickstander – I think it’s A-OK to like a work solely because of representation. Heck, I’ve liked things just because they represented people like me and I’m not exactly hurting for representation, by and large. I mean, if you look for characters with my race AND my gender AND my sexuality AND my religion AND my most passionate interests, you might have to work a bit. But it would be ridiculous for me to seek that when so many need representation on just one of those axes, and given that a white heterosexual Christian ciswoman nerd can easily find three or four… yeah.

But because I’m not really hurting for representation, it’s not a major criterion for stories I seek to experience. Frankly, the only reason I want to read a story with unusually good representation in unusual areas is if it gives me a solid look into that particular kind of unfamiliar life experience. I’ll want to subsidize any attempt, and encourage it, so that other people can experience stories about people like them, but I won’t want to experience it. And frankly, it’s much, much easier to subsidize when I can get the satisfaction of a good story out of it. Furthermore, good stories allow you to convince people who don’t care at all about representation to experience a more representative world, if that makes sense.

And I note that you share a reservation of mine about representation: You say that I hardly ever see myself represented … in a way that isn’t deeply insulting (emphasis added). The better the story, the more likely that the representation won’t be insulting.

I’m sorry – and angry on your behalf – that your representation is so poor that even a non-insulting reference in a mediocre work would be a vast improvement, and I wouldn’t want us to become so discriminating-in-the-meticulous-sense that we encourage discrimination-in-the-exclusionary-sense. But for those of us with enough privilege to have plenty of representation, bland representation can be a kind of insult. When we focus on the importance of a good story, I like to think it’s because we’re relieved that in one instance, at least, someone may be getting a proper representation, not just a mediocre mention. And, of course, everyone is always glad when there are more truly good stories in the world.

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mygif

@tickstander: I apologize if I didn’t make myself clear–I totally agree with you. It would be worth having ‘Ms Marvel’ even if it was just there as an attempt to do represent a culture other than “straight white male”. The attempt itself is worth celebrating.

But in this case, the attempt succeeded. All of the whiny fanboys who said, “Oh, it’s just tokenism and diversity for its own sake and it’ll suck but Marvel will push it on us anyway for the sake of PC-ness?” No. This book rocks, it rocks exactly for the reasons those people said it would suck, and they can shove that down their throats. That, to me, feels like it’s worth saying as well. The last paragraph was aimed primarily at the people who would claim that anyone who’d defend this was only doing so for political reasons, and not to suggest that it isn’t worth defending on those grounds.

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Michael Healy said on February 8th, 2014 at 8:28 pm

tickstander, there is nothing wrong with enjoying something just because of representation.

Unfortunately far too many narrow minded folks latch onto less than ideal stories with representations outside of their experience and make the moronic assumption that since this story wasn’t very good and had different sorts of people represented then all stories about these sorts of people must be just as bad.

I think it is only right to relish in any story that features representation and a good story on it’s own right just to shove that kind of thinking in those bigot’s collective faces.

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Potomac Ripper said on February 8th, 2014 at 9:05 pm

I went in with low expectations and had a good time. I’m in for issue 2

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mygif

Yeah, every aspect of me is pretty commonly represented (not all together), but it’s nice when writers get things right (or casting people in the case of Fangasm, artificial as it was).

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Yvonmukluk said on February 9th, 2014 at 5:13 pm

This is one of the best teen hero books of recent years. Alongside the Pre-Nu52 Blue Beetle and Ultimate Spider-Man (both Peter and Miles).

The fact that three out of those four are minorities of one shape or another should really shut up the fanboys whining about tokenism. Characters other than white males, that aren’t stereotypes can be popular when written well; who’d have thought it?

Of course, the fact that they exist in the first place is worth celebration in itself, as tickstander notes. The fact they stand up as good stories just hammers the point home.

I hope Rainbow Toots gets better.

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mygif

I am very happy with the first issue, and looking forward to the next.

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mygif

It was good…for what it was.

And John nailed it with “the first ten minutes of the pilot episode”.

I wish there was more meat to the first issue (compare, at least in my mind, to the new X-Factor #1, where I felt, “Yeah, I just read a good first issue!”) this felt like a good first part of a first issue.

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mygif

@Scavenger: In Ms Marvel’s defense, this pace feels like lightning compared to Bendis’ Ultimate Spider-Man #1, lo those many years ago. :) Comics are paced differently now than they once were, and while it felt like part one of a trade to me, that’s about par for the course these days.

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mygif

For some reason a spunky young lady isn’t who I think about when I see the name Kamala.

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mygif

One thing this comic did better than anything I’ve ever read or seen, is it sold Carol Danvers as a great hero people look up to.

I mean, Marvel’s been pushing that idea for years, and it never works. But in the pages of the comic, I bought the idea.

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Halloween Jack said on February 20th, 2014 at 12:08 pm

This weird idea that it isn’t okay to like a creative work BECAUSE it offers depictions of marginalised people in a way that isn’t offensive, BECAUSE it engages with important social issues, BECAUSE it is making an effort to tell stories in an ethical way… where did this idea come from? Why do we have to qualify our applause of ethical works with ‘BUT IT’S A REALLY GOOD STORY!!!’

Probably due to the well-intentioned but painful stuff that’s been put out in the past in comics, from “I Am Curious(Black)” to Northstar’s coming out.

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