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mygif

I’m impressed MGK had the restraint to not spend significant wordage mocking a person for responding to a 2011 post without seeming realizing that it was written in 2011. If this was a forum discussion, the writer would be flamed for his thread necromancy as much as his racism.

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mygif

“stop trying to force diversity into things, just respect the story and let things take their natural course,”

I’d agree that this isn’t a logically sound model at base, because the “natural course” is basically the status quo with small, incremental steps in a different direction.

At the end of the day, “forcing” the issue is a gamble. I’m interested to see how the Fantastic Four reboot gamble pays off in particular, since the character of Johnny Storm is purely (IMO) driven by characteristics that are race-neutral (unless there’s some story I missed featuring Johnny Storm waxing poetic on the plight of the noble honky).

The sad truth is that if that movie bombs, executives may take that as a sign to shunt diversity to the back burner. I’d like to think that they wouldn’t blame that casting choice, but box office combined with fanboy backlash might make them skew that way.

As far as casting race-neutral roles with actors from non-white races, I don’t think that it’s much of an issue in the non-fanboy sphere. I’ve seen an Asian Othello. I’ve seen a black Pozzo. I’ve seen a Hispanic Emcee (Cabaret). Not a backlash to be found.

With comics, the bottom line is that you’ve got beloved characters that people grew up with, and to which folks have a fierce affinity. Seriously, we’re talking about people who will stop reading Spider-Man for something as absurd as a costume change. I think the overriding mentality there isn’t intentionally racist, it’s more like “Why are you fucking with a fundamental aspect of my childhood?”

Personally, again, I tell those people to see how the story plays out. The change of race (in a race-neutral role) is essentially cosmetic, and doesn’t change any part of the narrative or story beats.

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mygif

Also, I’m aware that Othello isn’t strictly a “race-neutral” role. In the tradition of transplanting Shakespeare plays into different settings, however, all that really matters is that Othello be seen as the representative of an outside race.

One could argue the logic of that choice, I’m just saying I’ve seen it.

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mygif

“As far as casting race-neutral roles with actors from non-white races, I don’t think that it’s much of an issue in the non-fanboy sphere. I’ve seen an Asian Othello. I’ve seen a black Pozzo. I’ve seen a Hispanic Emcee (Cabaret). Not a backlash to be found.”

Also, I mean “isn’t an issue” from the perspective of the consumer, not “this isn’t an issue because a black guy played Pozzo so diversity is fine.”

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mygif

“The sad truth is that if that movie bombs, executives may take that as a sign to shunt diversity to the back burner. I’d like to think that they wouldn’t blame that casting choice, but box office combined with fanboy backlash might make them skew that way.”

Conventional Hollywood wisdom is, to be blunt, racist and sexist as all get-out. To my knowledge there’s absolutely no hard evidence whatsoever that movies featuring leading actors of non-Caucasian ethnicities do worse on average than movies starring white guys, but it’s Hollywood gospel that you’re taking a gamble by doing so unless the actor in question is “one of the really famous ones.” Likewise Hollywood has a real aversion to women-led action movies that I believe falls under the same conventional wisdom.

So I don’t think it’s really unfair for fans to feel disgruntled that, for example, Marvel is willing to go to bat for a Guardians of the Galaxy movie while there’s yet to be a hint of a rumor that we’ll see a Black Panther movie anytime soon, or a Carol Danvers movie, or something along those lines. I mean, they’re making an Ant-Man movie for crying out loud. Ant-Man! Who the fuck was clamoring for an Ant-Man movie? Nobody fucking likes Ant-Man, even comic book writers don’t give a shit about that guy.

There are those Netflix miniseries’ that they’re supposed to be producing, among which are Luke Cage and Jessica Jones, so I guess you could say that’s something, but there’s still a substantial difference between that and a big, AAA blockbuster that’s going to be in theaters around the world. Marvel doesn’t lack for diverse characters they could choose to make some of their wildly successful movies out of, it’s just a matter of someone at the top of the decision-making chain having the gumption to put his foot down and go “we’re actually making this and outraged fans can go fuck themselves, they’ll probably go and see this anyway.” Nobody playing the Hollywood game likes to take risks, but Marvel’s already taking them with movies like GotG, so the question is that if a wildly successful studio with a solid track record of quality movies isn’t willing to take the risk of giving T’Challa or Carol Danvers their own movie, then who will?

(Also the super-ironic thing in the context of superhero movies is a point that MGK made in an earlier post…it was Wesley Snipes’ Blade that started paving the way for modern superhero movies as they exist by pointing out that you could totally make a badass action movie out of comic book properties, so in a real sense you could argue that modern Marvel Studios owes a lot to an action movie headlines by a black actor.)

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mygif

Y’know what I’d like to see (can’t remember if I first floated this here or in another forum)? A movie about the Isaiah Bradley Captain America. Full-on, unflinching look at Cap seen through the lens of Tuskeegee-era horrors.

It’d NEVER happen, but I think that it’d be one of those watershed moments in superhero cinema.

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mygif

“Nobody playing the Hollywood game likes to take risks, but Marvel’s already taking them with movies like GotG, so the question is that if a wildly successful studio with a solid track record of quality movies isn’t willing to take the risk of giving T’Challa or Carol Danvers their own movie, then who will?”

Hell, just look at Wonder Woman! Bona-fide feminine icon, and WB won’t consider pulling the trigger on it. They’d rather shoehorn her into a Bat- or Super- movie.

The reason I’ve seen is that GL didn’t work out for them, which (IMO) failed because DC couldn’t get out of its own damn way and let the thing take place largely in space.

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mygif

Marvel could, if they wanted to, try and play Time Warner/DC’s reluctance to give Wonder Woman her own movie into their own favor by greenlighting an unabashed Carol Danvers as Captain Marvel movie and being the first ones to say “hey, you can have a superhero movie led by a woman, see?” At this point it’s pretty much a given that DC is never, ever, ever going to actually give Wonder Woman anything more than second-stringer status even in their “let’s hurry up and try to jump on the Avengers bandwagon” attempts at making an interconnected Justice League movie series, so Marvel has every opportunity to beat them to the punch on that score.

Also just to real quick go back and address something you said earlier, Matt:

“With comics, the bottom line is that you’ve got beloved characters that people grew up with, and to which folks have a fierce affinity. Seriously, we’re talking about people who will stop reading Spider-Man for something as absurd as a costume change. I think the overriding mentality there isn’t intentionally racist, it’s more like “Why are you fucking with a fundamental aspect of my childhood?”

See, the problem with this sort of thing (and boy howdy do you see a lot of this thing any time someone proposes something like comics characters being played by non-Caucasians. Or holy shit, try Doctor Who fandom anytime the subject of “maybe a woman and/or non-Caucasian ought to have a crack at the alien character who can regenerate into different bodies, just a thought.”) is that you don’t have to be a slavering, lynch-mob and cross-burning racist to say and/or do racist stuff. It’s like the clueless guy who uses “the n-word” and then gets defensive when people tell him to knock that shit off. He’s not a racist, damnit! It’s just a word! He’s helping reclaim it! Or something.

That dude may not have any special hatred towards black people or Hispanics or whoever, but that doesn’t stop someone from doing and/or saying something that is itself kind of (or more than kind of) racist. And a lot of the arguments for why you can’t have, say, a black Spider-Man can be embarrassingly racist when you stop and examine them in any detail. I remember seeing one guy on a comics forum argue that being white was an important fundamental aspect of Peter Parker’s character because, get this, Peter is a dorky science nerd and therefore…

Think about that for a second. Think about the assumptions crammed into that idea, that it would snap this guy’s suspenders of disbelief for the dorky, intelligent, science-oriented nerd character to be black. The notion that this sort of character simply doesn’t mesh with a non-white ethnicity is pretty fucking racist really, but I guarantee that the moment someone called this dude out he would immediately go on the defensive and act like he was the one under attack.

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mygif

“That dude may not have any special hatred towards black people or Hispanics or whoever, but that doesn’t stop someone from doing and/or saying something that is itself kind of (or more than kind of) racist. And a lot of the arguments for why you can’t have, say, a black Spider-Man can be embarrassingly racist when you stop and examine them in any detail. I remember seeing one guy on a comics forum argue that being white was an important fundamental aspect of Peter Parker’s character because, get this, Peter is a dorky science nerd and therefore…”

Yeah, that’s why I went with “unintentional.”

My usual reaction to a race change is generally the same one I have to a costume change. For example, I dig the Hulk. If they said “Alright, he’s purple now,” my first reaction would be to say “Okay, why?” It’s not a rankling thing by any means, but I’d be lying if I said that it wasn’t initially visually jarring.

“The notion that this sort of character simply doesn’t mesh with a non-white ethnicity is pretty fucking racist really, but I guarantee that the moment someone called this dude out he would immediately go on the defensive and act like he was the one under attack.”

Well, I think that this hearkens back to the idea of approaches.

I think it is safe to say that more than a few folks on this board are of the “zero tolerance for zero tolerance” mindset, meaning that if an opinion is expressed that doesn’t jibe with the collective ideal, the first impulse is to attempt to destroy it. As I said earlier in the post with the HuffPo editorial, the best and surest way to push progress along is to change minds on the microscale.

Every person you individually reach with a pro-gay marriage message, for example, may vote accordingly when something like a Proposition 8 comes up, particularly if they didn’t have a “dog in the fight” prior to that.

It doesn’t matter that said person wasn’t ascribing to a worldview that others may see as common sense. What matters is what occurs AFTER they’re exposed to facets of that worldview.

What I try to do, in lieu of using people’s biases and/or my own views like a cudgel, is engage them in conversation and get them to articulate their own position in practical terms. Why? The simple reason is that you get people to open themselves up and have a dialogue. People can change their minds during a dialogue. If, on the other hand, you try to force realization on a person, or (worse) try to punish someone for their position, they either close up and disengage or (more often) fill their own hand with shit and chuck it back at the apes who started it.

A shit-slinging fight does ZERO to advance dialogue, affect any sort of change, or do anything other than result in hostility with no purpose.

Using the example you gave (Peter Parker guy), I’d approach it like this:

“Alright, let me see if I understand you correctly – you’re basically saying that dorky science nerds are a white archetype, right? And I’m not reading anything into that, I’m working directly with what you’ve presented. If that is your position, you’re basically saying that a black individual either cannot or should not be a dorky science nerd. Why exactly do you feel that this is the case?”

You don’t corner the guy. Everyone knows that cornering an animal (especially en masse) is the best way to get it to attack you. Rather, you let the guy paint HIMSELF into a corner, realize that he’s in a corner, and then extend a lifeline.

Something like: “Look, I get that you have an attachment to Peter Parker as he is. I similarly get that visuals are of significantly higher importance (YMMV) in a visual medium. However, stating that a black person should be excluded from consideration for a ‘dorky science nerd’ role is pretty much a textbook example of racism, whether you intend it or not.”

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Lurker said on May 9th, 2014 at 4:11 pm

A great example. I find it especially fun, because there is already a case of a black, dorky science nerd in a block buster movie: Sonar Technician 2nd Class Jones from The Hunt for Red October. He’s black and nerdy and it doesn’t cause any problems to the story. (Well, in the book, he’s said to be a ladies’ man, so you might say he is not a real dork, but that doesn’t come up in the movie.)

If you can have a black nerd in a Tom Clancy movie in the 1980’s, you can have one anywhere.

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mygif

‘Black dorky scientist’ also sums up one of the most popular sitcom characters of all time = Steve Urkel.

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Sergeant Grumbles said on May 10th, 2014 at 12:08 pm

Matt:

I say this as someone who has also said some incredibly stupid and/or bigoted shit, been called to task for saying some incredibly stupid and/or bigoted shit, and gotten widely defensive of saying incredibly stupid and/or bigoted shit.

For your own good, please just stop talking. Back away from the keyboard and find some other way to amuse yourself.

You are not doing anyone any favors here, least of all yourself. You are not saying anything anyone here hasn’t heard (or, in my case, said myself) a thousand times before. What you are doing here is a simple tone argument; it’s one of the classic ways to derail a thread about feminism, or calling to task racism in media and fan circles, or anything else really. A tone argument is widely considered a form of derailment because the tone of a statement is separate from the content. Calling attention to tone rather than content is just another way of avoiding addressing the content. Think about it like this: If you step on someone’s toes, and they yell at you to get off, you _get off their toes_; you don’t refuse unless they ask “nicely.”

Many, many smarter people than I have written about tone arguments like yours. That is because, again, you are not saying anything new, or anything that the people here calling you to task for haven’t seen a thousand times already. That is what I mean when I say your argument is nothing special.

But anyway. I’ve been Clueless White Dude No. 37 before. I’ve bristled at the suggestion that I’ve said incredibly stupid and/or bigoted things before. I’ve made the exact same tone arguments that you’ve made before. I got over it. And if an idiot like me can, there’s hope for you yet.

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The Prankster said on May 10th, 2014 at 2:43 pm

You know, one of the major points that I think is getting skipped over is that this guy is clearly, factually wrong: Medieval Spain, which is pretty obviously the basis for Dorne in the ASoIaF books (to hammer the point home, they’ve given Oberyn Martell a Spanish accent in the show) was actually about as racially diverse as you could ask in that particular era. Besides the fact that Spaniards are arguably racially distinct from other Europeans, there were Sephardic Jews, Turks, North Africans, and lots of others; it was, after all, the gateway to the Mediterranean sea.

And indeed, N. K. Jemison (fantasy author who is also a black woman OHMIGERD) points out in a recent post (http://nkjemisin.com/2014/03/confirmation-bias-epic-fantasy-and-you/), even the idea that your fantasy world is purely lily-white because “that was how it was in Medieval Europe, and that’s what this world is based on” is fallacious.

This isn’t tokenism, it’s “learning more about the world you live in.”

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Cookie McCool said on May 10th, 2014 at 3:40 pm

On the plus side, no-one’s been threatened with rape here. So you can no awful racism or no awful sexism but you can’t have both on the internet.

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mygif

“And indeed, N. K. Jemison (fantasy author who is also a black woman OHMIGERD) points out in a recent post (http://nkjemisin.com/2014/03/confirmation-bias-epic-fantasy-and-you/), even the idea that your fantasy world is purely lily-white because “that was how it was in Medieval Europe, and that’s what this world is based on” is fallacious.”

I’ve seen people make this exact fallacious argument to justify why, say, Dungeons & Dragons has a dearth of non-white characters represented in the artwork. Like literally straight-up “medieval Europe didn’t have any black people.” For a subculture that likes to tout the intelligence of its members, nerds can be amazingly dumb sometimes.

Re: the tone argument thing, let’s turn it around. Matt, at what point would you say that people are no longer obligated to keep giving people who say and/or do dumb and/or clueless things the benefit of the doubt? Is the idea that the only way they should respond to stuff like this is with infinite saint-like patience regardless of how many times it goes around, or is there actually a threshold where they can justifiably tell someone to go and get their own clue if they want to keep being part of the discussion? Where does that threshold lie, exactly?

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highlyverbal said on May 11th, 2014 at 4:14 pm

One odd note in the whole discussion is the passionate defense of GRRM and his books, like he is the casting director or something. People love to fool themselves with a narrative of how virtuously they are defending a fave author, I guess.

(Casting for GoT is Nina Gold and Robert Sterne. I’m sure that GRRM would listen to their suggestions.)

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mygif

“Many, many smarter people than I have written about tone arguments like yours. That is because, again, you are not saying anything new, or anything that the people here calling you to task for haven’t seen a thousand times already. That is what I mean when I say your argument is nothing special.”

Well, thanks for the response, but I really don’t give a flying fuck how “special” my argument is. Other people are perfectly free to completely disregard tone and/or use whatever tone they see fit (up to and including statements that actually hurt the cause they’re fighting for). Me? I think that it actually fucking matters, and so I’m going to discuss that.

Consider it my “punching the incoming tide” battle, but I absolutely despise how discourse is generally practiced online. People can do better. If that means I’m fighting some tired battle against various and sundry veterans of the keyboard wars, fine.

For the record, I’ve added to the conversation in other areas, not just tone.

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mygif

“Re: the tone argument thing, let’s turn it around. Matt, at what point would you say that people are no longer obligated to keep giving people who say and/or do dumb and/or clueless things the benefit of the doubt?”

When it becomes clear that they’re doing it for a reason aside from actual conversation.

“Is the idea that the only way they should respond to stuff like this is with infinite saint-like patience regardless of how many times it goes around, or is there actually a threshold where they can justifiably tell someone to go and get their own clue if they want to keep being part of the discussion?”

And, again, maybe I’m a fucking outlier here, but if someone asks me about my area of expertise during a discussion thereof, I’m not going to reply with “Fuck you, idiot, read a book!” Why? Because it is a stupid thing to do, IMO. I’d rather approach it differently. YMMV.

One doesn’t have to be an unabashed fucking prick, is all I’m saying. Some folks feel otherwise, and others treat “unabashed fucking prick” as a default setting when they fire up Firefox. And, again, I think that it is stupid. It is the difference between responding to a question on the merits of that question and filling up your hand with fresh shit to throw at anyone who speaks.

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mygif

“(Casting for GoT is Nina Gold and Robert Sterne. I’m sure that GRRM would listen to their suggestions.)”

For the non-majors, dude probably gets a stack of headshots and says “Yeah, that’s fine.”

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mygif

“It is the difference between responding to a question on the merits of that question and filling up your hand with fresh shit to throw at anyone who speaks.”

To clarify, I’m talking about the folks who lead off with insults.

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mygif

@Matt: “Well, thanks for the response, but I really don’t give a flying fuck how “special” my argument is. Other people are perfectly free to completely disregard tone and/or use whatever tone they see fit (up to and including statements that actually hurt the cause they’re fighting for). Me? I think that it actually fucking matters, and so I’m going to discuss that.

Consider it my “punching the incoming tide” battle, but I absolutely despise how discourse is generally practiced online. People can do better. If that means I’m fighting some tired battle against various and sundry veterans of the keyboard wars, fine.”

The thing is, we despise how discourse is generally practiced online too. But what we generally despise is people who believe that if they say something despicable in a polite manner, they are entitled to a polite response no matter how despicable their statement is. It is rude to suggest that you don’t really care about a lack of minority representation in the media, no matter how it is phrased. What we are all trying to tell you, as politely as we variously can given our exasperation with your behavior, is that there is no “nice” way to say the things you are saying, and that you don’t really have a right to expect politeness when saying these things because the substance of them is rude.

Think of it this way–if you said to someone, “Excuse me, but I find your countenance to be extremely discombobulating and I would much prefer it if you engaged in fornication with a cactus rather than remain in my presence,” and they responded with, “Yeah, well, you go fuck something pointy too, ugly…” Would you really feel like you were being unjustly insulted?

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Devichan said on May 12th, 2014 at 11:11 pm

Assuming an argument in good faith on Matt’s, in being in a mood to point to 101 stuff on the grounds multiple people (as well as Matt) may read it…

Matt: please read this about tone arguments/ people “being mean to [you].”

“A Feminist Was Mean To Me”
Also, comment 1.3 on that post is especially relevant.
More reading:
“Yo, Is This Racist?” – humorous but true!
SPLC Blog
“Finally Feminism 101”
“Resist Racism – We Heard It Before” (You are exhibiting #11, but you can stop!)
“Trans 101”

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mygif

“It is rude to suggest that you don’t really care about a lack of minority representation in the media, no matter how it is phrased.”

I absolutely, 100% disagree. I said that the quality of the story and the telling are of chief importance to me. That means exactly what it says: while casting, costume changes, skin color changes, etc., are all variables in what constitutes popular entertainment (particularly in the case of adaptations), I care primarily about how the story is being told and the telling of it.

I fail to see how this is rude in ANY WAY. Dismissive? Yeah, I can see that, and (again) I recanted it and restated my position. But saying “Yeah, I’m more concerned with the story in regards to story-driven narratives” is not rude. Like, in any sense of the word.

Again, you apparently disagree, so there’s literally zero fucking point in discussing it further. You aren’t budging from your position that what I said was some intensely rude and damaging thing, and I’m sure as hell not budging on the point that, no, it wasn’t.

Look, it’s clear to me that we’re at an impasse. As I said before, feel free to paint me in whatever color, shape, and general life philosophy you’d like. Anonymous internet folks have been doing it to each other for years, so it isn’t a terribly surprising or disruptive phenomenon. I personally think that we agree on more things than we disagree, but are caught up in the expression of it.

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mygif

Assuming an argument in good faith on Matt’s, in being in a mood to point to 101 stuff on the grounds multiple people (as well as Matt) may read it…

Matt: please read this about tone arguments/ people “being mean to [you].”

“A Feminist Was Mean To Me”
Also, comment 1.3 on that post is especially relevant.
More reading:
“Yo, Is This Racist?” – humorous but true!
SPLC Blog
“Finally Feminism 101″
“Resist Racism – We Heard It Before” (You are exhibiting #11, but you can stop!)
“Trans 101″

Okay, let’s break this down:

1. I don’t care about people “being mean to me.” I DO care about discussing the utter uselessness and futility of sticking with aggression as a default setting.

2. I recognize the various inequalities in terms of gender, race, and/or religious affiliation. I feel that these inequalities are important to address in logical ways.

3. The comment you referred to: “I think the difference, Dave, is that your math teacher hasn’t been oppressed for his or her skin colour or gender all their lives. Oppressed people have a damned good reason to be angry, so when someone of privilege says ‘Hey, I get your point, but you have to be nice about it’ it’s frankly galling as fuck.”

See, in this instance, I don’t expect a person of color to discuss the topic of racism in a 100% rational, non-heated fashion. What galls me is that most of the backlash I see DOESN’T come from those people, it comes from upper-middle class whites who are appropriating that anger and wielding it as if they have a right to it.

If you’re a black teen living in the worst part of Roxbury, MA, I don’t expect you to discuss the issue without getting pissed and/or emotionally invested. I DO expect that from another “outsider.”

4. To the point of “well what’s mean when I say it is fine when a guy says it,” not to me. I personally don’t differentiate. If someone’s “pushy,” for example (a word often used to characterize an assertive woman), that isn’t a gender-centric term for me, it is indicative of a specific sort of behavior.

Man or woman, gay or straight, black or white, if you’re pushy, you’re fucking pushy.

5. I’m familiar with the issues surrounding the transgender population. It isn’t an issue for me, though it inexplicably is for other folks who see it as some kind of abomination or weird thing.

It’s definitely a new thing (relatively speaking), and it is currently at the forefront of activism around me (I live in MA), so you’re seeing a lot of knee-jerk, uninformed opinions on the matter. FWIW, I don’t think that it’ll take all that long to drift into the area of general acceptance, certainly not as long as it took for homosexuality to become “normalized.”

6. As far as this: http://resistracism.wordpress.com/2008/05/21/those-tears/

I get the point being made. “This is ours, and it isn’t much, so we’re going to fight to keep it.” Again, my frustration in this regard doesn’t extend to groups of affected individuals. My frustration extends to white folks appropriating that anger and frustration in comparable measures.

The sense I get from much of this board is this:
-If you’re white, ::BLANK:: is the accepted position.
-If you’re white, and disagree with any facet of the accepted position, GTFO or STFU. If you don’t, other whites will pile on you.
-If you’re white, your personal experience and/or perspectives don’t mean much of anything in regard to the overall topic.

And, to be PERFECTLY CLEAR, I’m not alleging “reverse racism” or whatever. I’m calling out dismissive behavior and deliberately marginalizing speech.

Again, I don’t personally see a need for it.

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mygif

Frome the “But a Feminist was mean to me” thing: “Remember that meanness is somewhat in the eye of the beholder, and what may seem mean to you may be just a normal spirited debate to someone else.”

I think this is where I’m having my main issue: I can’t seem to pin down the general flow of discourse on this site. Things that I’ve stated on other forums, and which served as jumping off points for real and important (as in mind-changing) discussions are met with “::SLAP:: YOU ARE A TERRIBLE PERSON” or “YOU ARE SAYING DESPICABLE THINGS” on this site.

Then, occasionally, people riff on dork shit (which is what brought me here in the first place).

I guess the question is what constitutes “spirited debate” on this forum?

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tickstander said on May 13th, 2014 at 11:12 am

‘Things that I’ve stated on other forums, and which served as jumping off points for real and important (as in mind-changing) discussions are met with “::SLAP:: YOU ARE A TERRIBLE PERSON” or “YOU ARE SAYING DESPICABLE THINGS” on this site.’

Yeah, that’s because those ‘other forums’ you frequent are populated by bigots, misogynists and ignorant manbabies.

No one is obliged to spend time having ‘real and important’ discussions with assholes who are just going to ignore everything they say.

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mygif

“Yeah, that’s because those ‘other forums’ you frequent are populated by bigots, misogynists and ignorant manbabies.”

Citation needed.

“No one is obliged to spend time having ‘real and important’ discussions with assholes who are just going to ignore everything they say.”

And I’ve done nothing of the kind. Seriously. I haven’t ignored anything aside from your earlier, still asinine insults. Rather, I’ve actively engaged with any salient point that other people have made, even if I disagree (specifically with tone, which has been and will always be a pet peeve of mine – take it or leave it).

If you’re not down with having a discussion with me, fine. If all you can bring to bear are armfulls of insults, also fine. Windmill away.

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mygif

@Matt: Informed debate, for one thing. Again, let’s try to take this into another topic. If you were listening to a science discussion, and you jumped right in with, “You know, I haven’t heard a whole lot about this topic, but it seems pretty clear from my lived experiences that the earth is flat. I mean, I’m a pretty smart guy and I pay attention to the world around me, so my opinions are just as valid as yours.”

You’re going to get told to STFU and take a science class. Complaining about the tone doesn’t really matter, because the fundamental fact of the matter is that you wandered into a conversation you knew nothing about and expected your opinions to be treated just the same way as anyone else’s, despite the fact that they were uninformed and based on bad information. Then, instead of listening and internalizing that, you decided to make the argument about how you were told–in essence, continuing to talk about yourself instead of listening, which is compounding the error.

The point is, you talked before listening, and you’re still talking instead of listening, only now you’re talking about how unfair it is that everyone keeps telling you to shut up and listen. 🙂 You may need, in this case, to accept that you have nothing meaningful to contribute to this topic at this time. That’s not an insult, it’s just a fact. Your contribution is to listen, and that’s a good and important thing. But continuing to insist that you should be allowed to talk despite not having anything of value to say, and then changing the topic to your hurt feelings over being told that you have nothing of value to say, is really kind of making this about you instead of about what it’s about. And we’re none of us here to talk about you.

Believe it or not. 🙂

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tickstander said on May 13th, 2014 at 11:24 am

‘Man or woman, gay or straight, black or white, if you’re pushy, you’re fucking pushy.’

The difference is, child, when oppressive classes (i.e. men, white people and straights) are ‘pushy’, they rape and murder and steal from those they oppress. When oppressed classes are ‘pushy’, it’s a way of fighting back.

Dude, do you have any idea how old and pathetic your arguments are? You are regurgitating every whiny protest ever uttered by comfortable, smug, spoiled, privileged asshole men desperate to defend themselves against the anger of the people you have, knowingly or unknowingly, spent your entire nasty little life shitting on.

You write so many words, and none of them matter. No one gives a fuck about your manchild bullshit. You clearly have done absolutely NO research into the issues you are presuming to lecture everyone on, and yet you KEEP. FUCKING. TALKING.

What is it with men like you? How do you feel so confident about barging into complicated discussions concerning social issues affecting groups you are not a part of? It really does feel like you’ve lived every day of your life with mainstream society’s hand wrapped lovingly around your dick, constantly whispering assurances into your sweaty ear that every single thing you have to say is relevant and important.

And that, basically, is what privilege is; the total certainty that your opinions are 100% relevant, 100% of the time.

Grow up.

Brat.

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mygif

“You’re going to get told to STFU and take a science class. Complaining about the tone doesn’t really matter, because the fundamental fact of the matter is that you wandered into a conversation you knew nothing about and expected your opinions to be treated just the same way as anyone else’s, despite the fact that they were uninformed and based on bad information. Then, instead of listening and internalizing that, you decided to make the argument about how you were told–in essence, continuing to talk about yourself instead of listening, which is compounding the error.”

Alright, I can get behind this, though I will not cop to anything other than walking into the discussion with an opinion on what I value in narrative fiction. Perhaps that perspective would be better suited to a different topic.

“Your contribution is to listen, and that’s a good and important thing. But continuing to insist that you should be allowed to talk despite not having anything of value to say, and then changing the topic to your hurt feelings over being told that you have nothing of value to say, is really kind of making this about you instead of about what it’s about.”

Alright, that’s fine. I’m set with that. I still have issues with the general marginalization and/or reductionism I see hereabouts, but that is what it is.

POINT OF ORDER: I don’t have “hurt feelings.” I feel like this point has been missed and/or ignored. My point wasn’t about me, it was about discourse in general.

Crossed wires on my end, and mea culpa for that. I appreciate the perspective.

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mygif

tickstander: Want some straw to stuff into your little effigy up there? The legs are looking a little light.

I appreciate John Seavey’s perspective, as well as that of folks who have helped me to see this overall issue in a new light.

You? Since we’re all about exposing tropes and/or marginalizing people based on categories of argument, here’s one: you’re the typical, blustering, ideologically-driven, belligerent asshole found in any corner of the internet. You have nothing to add to a conversation but invectives. You drape your points in condescension to cover for a lack of information. You make stupid, insipid generalizations. Hey, you’re three for three!

Here’s a tip: ignore me in the future. Just do that. Or, again, continue to windmill like a good little keyboard warrior. Your merit badge is in the mail.

“Grow up.

Brat. ”

Adorable. Want to throw an insult in there about my mother as well?

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mygif

“The difference is, child, when oppressive classes (i.e. men, white people and straights) are ‘pushy’, they rape and murder and steal from those they oppress. When oppressed classes are ‘pushy’, it’s a way of fighting back.”

Also, this is an enormously fucking stupid argument.

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Jazzlet said on May 13th, 2014 at 1:18 pm

So Matt if you didn’t mean to disrail the argument how come you have continued to respond? Because if you didn’t mean to do it the only other conculsion available is that you are so concerned about being percieved to be right that you think that is more important than the original argument. And actually no you don’t get to insist that you know better about the tone people should adopt or that white men are not allowed to be outraged by discrimination. I don’t post here that often and I don’t know who all of these people are, but while some of them apparently admit there gender in their tags plenty don’t and how the hell do you know any of them are white? You are making assumptions that say more about you than about the people posting.

As has been said Spain in medieaval times was one of the most diverse and tolerant societies in history, Britain had black members of society from a variety of places and so on. Along with the stereotype of weak women with no agency putting an all white cast of characters in fantasy settings supposedly based on these perieods and places is just lazy, lazy and boring. There are different things that pull each reader out of a story, this sort of laziness is one of the reasons I rarely pick up male fantasy writers these days, because it’s usually indicative of lazy plotting and so on. I didn’t know N K Jemisin was female or black when I got the first Dreamblood book out of the library,but I gave the writer I presumed to be male and white a chance. Having finished the first book I still didn’t know anything about the writer, I did know that I wanted to know what was going to happen to the diverse characters I had met, and now I’m sodding off as the second book is awaiting my attention.

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mygif

“So Matt if you didn’t mean to disrail the argument how come you have continued to respond?”

Shoot me an email or whatever if you’d like to discuss this (in the absence of a PM system or sub-thread). I’m not going to go down the rabbit hole again.

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tickstander said on May 13th, 2014 at 2:28 pm

matt: I’m a butch dyke who has spent her life dealing with dirt like you, child.

FUCK YES, I’m ‘belligerent.’

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tickstander said on May 13th, 2014 at 2:29 pm

Also, your mother regrets you.

<3

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mygif

“matt: I’m a butch dyke who has spent her life dealing with dirt like you, child.

FUCK YES, I’m ‘belligerent.’”

Ah, “dirt like you”…your assumptions are just awesome. Seriously, top-notch shit.

I’ll wait for your screed on what I have personally done to you to make your life more difficult. Y’know, aside from apparently existing.

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mygif

“Also, your mother regrets you.

<3"

OOOOOOOH! ZING!

Do you have anything other than vitriol? Anything at all? Make a fucking non-assumptive point. I dare you. I'll give ya a dollar.

Seriously, what does the shit you’re currently peddling achieve? Is this some “blow off steam by teeing off on someone semi-anonymously on the internet” thing?

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Sergeant Grumbles said on May 13th, 2014 at 3:48 pm

@Matt:

Do you remember what I said the other day about backing away from the keyboard and finding some other way to amuse yourself?

Yeah, that might be a good idea now.

Might have been a good idea on Friday.

Yours, Etc.
–A Former Fellow Belligerently Ignorant White Dude

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mygif

“Do you remember what I said the other day about backing away from the keyboard and finding some other way to amuse yourself?

Yeah, that might be a good idea now.

Might have been a good idea on Friday.”

Yeah, I’m really not being defensive. One logically can’t be doing that if one apologizes for errors and/or says “Huh, well I could have gone about this differently.”

Now belligerent? Yeah, I’ll cop to that in my responses to tickstander, who has apparently decided that I’m a convenient scapegoat for every bit of adversity and hardship she’s ever had to face.

But, whatever. I got good points from some folks, learned some things, and got moronic attacks from others. ::shrugs::

But yeah, we’re circling the drain at this point. Backing away now. 😉

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Tristan said on May 14th, 2014 at 1:38 am

“I guess I get both sides of it.”

BOOOOOO

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tickstander said on May 14th, 2014 at 5:17 am

matt: Baby, I am SO GLAD that you have ‘learned some things’. That is SO GREAT.

And all it took for you to learn ‘some things’ was literally days of education provided to you for free by dozens of people whose lived experiences you have discounted and whose grasp of important sociological issues you have either dismissed or treated with sulky skepticism, all while you sat on your butt and demanded to be spoonfed information you could easily have researched yourself while behaving like a rude, spoiled infant.

This is basically why I no longer bother trying to ‘teach’ dudes like you. It is just not worth it. Maybe there is something redeemable in your type of person, but I honestly don’t see why the rest of us should have to expend all this energy to locate it.

Come back to the table when you are capable of learning ‘some things’ without hurting and insulting your teachers in the process.

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Dan Coyle said on May 31st, 2014 at 9:46 am

“Come back to the table when you are capable of learning ‘some things’ without hurting and insulting your teachers in the process.”

Oh yeah, beacuse then you’ll be REAL NICE.

Matt grew increasingly belligerent and childish as this thread grew on, and he was starting from a very shaky position to begin with, but you were bigoted and hateful from post one.

Why would I WANT to be anywhere near a person like you, tickstander? Why would you want a person like me- a white, straight male- anywhere near you, unless you want me under your boot? You just want to be the bully this time, but you don’t get how that can be just as toxic and unfulfilling.

Sorry, MGK, I couldn’t let this slide.

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