31 users responded in this post

Subscribe to this post comment rss or trackback url
mygif

Didn’t care for the movie. Would like to see how Wonder Woman’s flick pans out, especially with a World War I setting. Did DC/Warner feel that they’d be accused of aping Captain America: The First Avenger if they went with WWII? And yes, I would like to see a Justice League movie. But if TPTB were to shut things down movie-wise and focus on cartoons and TV shows, I don’t think we’d miss out.

ReplyReply
mygif

I actually liked this movie more than I liked Man of Steel, but I do ultimately feel that it’s a very flawed interpretation. Super-heroes are inherently at odds with a Randian philosophy (unless you’re Steve Dikto), and Synder’s inclinations in that direction have bled through both this and Man of Steel quite powerfully.

Furthermore, even at their darkest films (Winter Soldiers primarily), Marvel films have always felt like something you could, by and large, take the kids to. When your Superman movie, the very first super-hero, probably the most recognizable super-hero on the planet, is in a film you can’t take young kids to, I think you’re doing something wrong.

ReplyReply
mygif

While it does, unfortunately, appear that Warner Brothers has not responded to the mediocre performance of ‘Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice’ with any kind of interesting panic

Is it only doing mediocre bank? I confess I read reports of all the coin it was raking in opening weekend, got really mad, got really sad, stopped paying attention. Was the subsequent dropoff that steep?

It seems pretty clear by now that Zack Snyder is who he seems to be; if you haven’t liked ‘300’, ‘Watchmen’, ‘Sucker Punch’, ‘Man of Steel’ or ‘Batman v Superman’, you’re probably not going to be surprised by his next film.

I loved 300 and Watchmen, and hated the other three movies on that list.

Oh, hey, what a coincidence! The first two movies were faithful adaptations of stories written by much better writers than Zack Snyder which he merely translated to film! The latter three are ones he tried to write himself!

Snyder is a very, very talented director. He’s dogshit as a writer and someone should slap his nose with a rolled-up newspaper and shout “NO!” every time he tries to fire up a word processor.

@Dylan

When your Superman movie, the very first super-hero, probably the most recognizable super-hero on the planet, is in a film you can’t take young kids to, I think you’re doing something wrong.

Fuck this attitude.

There’s nothing wrong with superheroes being something all-ages appropriate, but, equally, there’s nothing wrong with superheroes not being all-ages appropriate. Nothing at all.

ReplyReply
mygif

Murc,

And in the general, I agree with you. I would never suggest that a Punisher film, or Deadpool (to use a more recent example) need be all ages.

But Superman? That’s where I have to draw the line.

ReplyReply
mygif
Hal Grayson said on April 10th, 2016 at 8:54 pm

“Remember that it’s not a life or death matter when you try to convince someone to see or not see the movie, and try to keep this particular schism, at least, to a polite discussion.”

We’ll see how long that lasts.

“Fuck this attitude.”

Three comments. A new record.

ReplyReply
mygif
Hal Grayson said on April 10th, 2016 at 9:04 pm

I do think the tone needs to be lightened a bit but overall I did enjoy the film but it was missing that “movie magic” if that makes sense. I look forward to what’s next.

I think the overall story arc was fine but I would have changed some details, mostly dialogue. Instead of Clark shouting “Save Martha!” I feel like “Save my Mom!” would have had more of an impact. I also wouldn’t have had Bats use any guns or kill people. I personally don’t have any problem with this interpretation of the character but they HAD to have known it would not be seen as a popular creative choice by the general public. It’s just moronic to think that wouldn’t have had this effect.

I do think the shot of the Trinity standing with that amazing score vibrating the theater is a moment I will never forget. It gave me goosebumps.

ReplyReply
mygif

I mostly agree with this, but with a big note at the end: that there is a definite bleed over from the dedicated fanbase’s opinion into the greater cultural awareness. A lot of people have read Frank Miller’s Batman stuff, enough to have strong opinions on The Dark Knight and if it does Batman well. Only a small percentage of those are actual monthly Batman readers. Nonetheless, their opinion changes how that movie is received, and how well it sells.

Or, look at Star Wars. The general public didn’t really have an opinion of the prequels- they sold damn well. But the Star Wars fans raged about them being bad, enough that the general consensus of those movies shifted into the ‘bad movies’ territory. So Disney, a company that very much only cares about the bottom line, had to spend a lot of money to make the new movies very different.

That’s not to say that there is a point to arguing the merits of the movie online; obviously arguments on the internet are what they are. But there is an effect of the cultural idea of a movie being good or bad.

ReplyReply
mygif
Gareth Wilson said on April 11th, 2016 at 5:13 am

I have no experience in film production, but having watched this movie I’m confident I could make a better version of it just by cutting stuff. Do the Razzies have a Worst Editing award?

ReplyReply
mygif

I’m trying to figure out which group I’m in; I hated hated HATED the movie mostly for script and tone reasons but I’m curious where other, more competent directors and writers are taking the DCCU, so I guess I’m bouncing between Groups 1 and 2.

What I wish you could do is staple a note saying “YOUR OPINION IS IRRELEVANT” to the forehead of every fanboy out there defending this film with a passion bordering on zealotry. I cannot believe the intensity some people are putting into defending this film.

My stance, which I was discussing online elsewhere, is that I could have forgiven the lack of humour, hope, and primary colours if there weren’t Mack truck-sized plot holes in the script. But one fellow in particular wouldn’t hear it; for every point I raised, he responded I “didn’t pay attention” or “it’s all there in the novelization/wiki for anyone who wants to know.” (Yeah, because that’s the sign of a great script: homework.)

Then when I asked him about more plot/structure issues (I found a lot), he sniffed “you didn’t pay attention” (not true) and “you’re supposed to be objective when watching a film” (huh?).

You would think I was finding issue with “Passion of the Christ” and arguing with Mel Gibson’s dad about it — there was no discussion, just accusations I “didn’t get it” and “wait for the next movie to explain everything.” Well, I paid good money to see THIS movie, and if it doesn’t work as a standalone work, then it’s by definition a bad movie.

ReplyReply
mygif

>> Is it only doing mediocre bank? I confess I read reports of all the coin it was raking in opening weekend, got really mad, got really sad, stopped paying attention. Was the subsequent dropoff that steep?

Drop in box office between first weekend and second was 69%. Compare to first Avengers film, which saw about 50% drop. To give that perspective, Avengers was seen in the same number of theatres both weekends; BVS actually *added* 14 more theatres to its North American run in the second week, and it still saw a huge dropoff.

Or consider the differences between Deadpool and this movie.

Deadpool: R-rated film, character not widely known outside comic fans, only one bankable star who spends most of the film in a mask or ugly-face makeup. Budget: $58 million. Worldwide take to date: over $750 million.

BVS: PG-13 fim, three of the most iconic comic characters on the planet, many good actors in lead and supporting roles, a film debut (Wonder Woman) many have been waiting decades to see. Budget: $250 million, take to date: about the same.

Also: Deadpool in its first two weekends pulled in $240 million — just $20 million shy of BVS. In any rational universe, that’s got to be seen as a huge embarrassment for Warner Bros., which banked heavily on this film.

ReplyReply
mygif
Sisyphus said on April 11th, 2016 at 8:04 am

I haven’t seen the movie yet, and I don’t think I want to. I haven’t heard much about it that makes me go, “Yay!” I was always a fan of the Donner version of Superman, and frankly, I get that for free with Supergirl on television. And I feel like I got burned on Man of Steel.

That being said, I do think that there is a flaw in saying, “WB doesn’t care about fans, who are only going to bring in $138 million in ticket sales, thinks.” First, there’s no way that Guardians of the Galaxy did about $750 million on single sales of tickets to the general public. That didn’t happen. Genre movies make their bank on multiple viewings in the theater. If 150,000 comics fans (because I don’t think everyone who considers him or herself a comic fan at this point has a weekly draw list), walks out of your superhero movie with a bad taste in their mouth, they’re not buying a second ticket. Further, they’re not taking their friends, who are waiting on the comic-geek sherpas’ review of the movie, to go see it on a second or third viewing. They’re not dragging reluctant significant others to the movie.

Second, I think that it’s not unreasonable to say, “I want a Superhero movie I can take my kid to, and BvS isn’t this. I think, maybe, it should have been.” That’s a completely legitimate complaint. Lots of parents who grew up with comics but don’t follow them closely remember reading Batman, Superman or Wonder Woman comics as kids and loving them. Taking your kid to see BvS, without being baked in the current fandom who’s been watching all the spoiler info for months, and then getting surprised at what you get on the screen is basically a bait and switch, as far as those parents are concerned. If you’re WB, you do care about that, because that’s people who aren’t buying a ticket next time who are part of that multitude of non-fans who they want to sell to.

Now, I do think that experience and evidence shows that WB really doesn’t care about what their fans think. But I think that’s a problem for them, and will lead to a lot of parents and the general public thinking, “OK. I’m not taking my kids or myself to superhero movies that don’t have MARVEL stamped on them.”

ReplyReply
mygif

Second, I think that it’s not unreasonable to say, “I want a Superhero movie I can take my kid to, and BvS isn’t this. I think, maybe, it should have been.” That’s a completely legitimate complaint.

This is a legitimate complaint. What isn’t, in my view, is “all superhero movies should be kid-friendly.” And you still see that an awful, awful goddamn lot.

There are also ton of superhero movies for kids. Well, defining kids loosely. There aren’t a lot of them that are PG or G, comparatively. But it’s not like being family friendly is an underrepresented genre.

Lots of parents who grew up with comics but don’t follow them closely remember reading Batman, Superman or Wonder Woman comics as kids and loving them.

These days, most parents familiarity with those characters is likely going to be based on the now fifteen to twenty-year-old cartoons from the nineties and early aughts rather than on the comics.

But I think that’s a problem for them, and will lead to a lot of parents and the general public thinking, “OK. I’m not taking my kids or myself to superhero movies that don’t have MARVEL stamped on them.”

Deadpool had Marvel stamped on it. That’s something you can’t take your kids to see, or at least, something you shouldn’t.

(Apparently a lot of people tried. What the fuck is wrong with people? It has the R rating right fucking there.)

ReplyReply
mygif

While I don’t think all superhero movies should be kid-friendly, there’s a lot of common sense branding stuff that DC and WB have completely given up on. Basically, the whole point of branding is to create a set of positive associations your product in the mind of the general public that encourages your target market to buy it. Superman has an absolutely killer brand identity as a kid-friendly superhero who has light-hearted adventures.

In order to aggressively move off-brand like this–make a movie that’s not just aimed at adults but actively hostile to child audiences (which it is, despite the PG-13 rating) you have to show that the adult audience is there in numbers that will make up for the drop-off in kids. I don’t think DC has done their homework there. I think the decision they made is primarily an ego-driven one; they want to make movies for adults, but they want the audience that comes with Superman’s name recognition. The result falls between two stools.

TL;DR: Cartoons aren’t just for kids either, but when you’re making a Mickey Mouse movie, you don’t have Minnie eviscerated on camera by Black Pete. :)

ReplyReply
mygif

I think you missed a group of fans in there John – those of us who are huge DC fans but didn’t bother to go see this movie in the theater because Zack Snyder (and for me to a lesser extent David Goyer – I’d be happy to see him move off to some other projects).

I have yet to see a Zack Snyder film that I’ve enjoyed, so I skipped this one. 300 left me cold, but I didn’t care for Miller’s comic in the first place so I gave him another chance with Watchmen. That actively irritated me because it was a very faithful adaptation of Dave Gibbon’s visuals while failing to adapt Alan Moore’s story around those visuals – an impressive feat but not one that I wanted to pay $8 at the time to watch.

I gave him one more chance with Man of Steel and his vision for Superman is so fundamentally at odds with my vision of Superman that I was actually angry at a goddamn movie for the first time in my life.

Life’s to short for me to watch movies that make me mad, so I skipped this one. I’ll say this for Snyder though – I think he’s the only director who has consistently batted .000 with me on his movies. Even Michael Bay managed to get me to enjoy Bad Boys and the Rock – Snyder is basically the anti-director to my personal tastes.

ReplyReply
mygif

Speaking as a member of that group, I’d class it as part of Group One. You’re unenthused about it to the point of not even wanting to spend two hours watching it, and you want Snyder to move on. That’s pretty much Group One, only you have ten extra bucks in your wallet. :)

ReplyReply
mygif
Cuitlamiztli Carter said on April 11th, 2016 at 4:08 pm

Exactly, Mr. Seavey. Actual superhero comic book readers are a small, small segment of nerddom, of film-goers, of anything.

The studios would be foolish to cater to them.

I am not being sarcastic, though I fear my post comes across as bitter or dismissive. It’s not: you’re entirely correct.

ReplyReply
mygif

A brief aside relating to the “mediocre bank” comment: Not only did BvS hit a 69% slump, but it was during a weekend where the only “major” new film that opened was ‘God’s Not Dead 2’. In its third weekend, it may not have beaten out Melissa McCarthy’s ‘The Boss’. Basically, if they’d decided to move it only a week out from ‘Civil War’ instead of a whole month, it may have been shredded even worse.

ReplyReply
mygif
James DeRiven said on April 11th, 2016 at 6:01 pm

“Nobody should ever have to apologize for liking a movie. Full stop.”

Bullshit. There are movies out there that spread legitimately vile and toxic messages. I’m not saying BvS is among them – I’ve not seen it and probably won’t – but to act like enjoying a movie puts you in some kind of sinless state of grace it’s a garbage philosophy.

ReplyReply
mygif

Yesyesyesyesyes. For the pedants among you, this statement has terms and conditions including, but not limited to:

1) Liking ‘Birth of a Nation’, but thinking ‘Triumph of the Will’ is more of a chick flick;

2) feeling that ‘Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer’ doesn’t hold a candle to the original home movies Lucas made;

and 3) Pixels.

ReplyReply
mygif

Death to superhero movies, death to cinematic universes.

ReplyReply
mygif

” I think the decision they made is primarily an ego-driven one; they want to make movies for adults, but they want the audience that comes with Superman’s name recognition. The result falls between two stools.”

Actually I think that someone convinced them that the Nolan Batman movies appealed to adults and made huge money without getting kids into the seats and that they could do the same with Superman.

Which is possibly even true, if they had a director as talented as Nolan at the helm. But they gave it to Zack Snyder instead.

ReplyReply
mygif

I’m not sure the falloff is the right metric. Opening unopposed on a holiday weekend, with really, truly, massive ticket pre sales, the falloff was always going to be huge. They also didn’t stagger opening day around the world, so it all hit at once. We really need some better net numbers and some realistic advertising budget information that I haven’t seen yet. But yeah, by compared to other much less anticipated movies, it is a disappointing showing, if not the actual loss some people are predicting.

ReplyReply
mygif

io9 has an article on it today, here’s the meaningful numbers:

Avengers: opened to $207 million and ended up with a domestic gross of $623 million and a total of $1.5 billion.

Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice: opened to $166 million and has so far grossed $296 million domestic and $784 million total.

Those are not the worst possible numbers in the history of ever, but it’s got a very steep hill to climb to make the kind of bank Avengers made, and it’s got very little time to do so before the next blockbuster comes along and sucks up all the oxygen. And WB knows that the first ever meeting of Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman on the same screen should make Avengers-level money. This is not a failure in the absolute sense, but in terms of the opportunity costs, it’s a garbage fire.

(Real quick explaining that, because I know I’ll have to do it in a subsequent comment if I don’t do it here: “Opportunity cost” is the loss you take when you pass up a potentially high-profit venture to invest in a low-profit venture. You make money, yes, but you lose the hypothetical difference in profit margin because you couldn’t invest in both things at once and you picked the wrong one. There is a hypothetical BvS that could have made Avengers box office, and they failed to make it. The people who made it are going to be held responsible for the opportunity loss.)

ReplyReply
mygif

It’s remarkable that they still went with Snyder when Man of Steel underperformed. Domestic gross of $291 mil, theatrical total $668 mil, against a stated production budget of $225 mil? That itself was flirting dangerously close with failure.

Snyder hasn’t made a true hit since 300 (Legend of the Guardians was a minor hit, but Sucker Punch might’ve been a small loss), and they’ve banked their entire multi-franchise plan on his aesthetic. That blows my mind.

ReplyReply
mygif

“The people who made it are going to be held responsible for the opportunity loss.”

I’d have more faith in that actually happening if the people really responsible for Man of Steel being the GRIMDARK joy-free zone had actually been held responsible for that, rather than rushing on to make BvS with exactly the same mistakes.

I find it far more likely that WB will do the usual Hollywood thing of learning all the wrong lessons from the failure for BvS being the sort of success that The Avengers was.

ReplyReply
mygif

Oh, I’m under no illusions that the _right_ people will be held resposible for the underperformance of BvS. I’m just saying this is the kind of shit that makes someone into a scapegoat.

ReplyReply
mygif
@JayDzed said on April 13th, 2016 at 6:56 pm

On that we are in total agreement: *someone*’s going to cop it in the neck for BvS not being the huge success it could/should have been, on par with The Avengers.

It’s a pity it almost certainly won’t be the actual people responsible for it’s lacklustre performance and overall wasted opportunity.

ReplyReply
mygif

I’m coming into this way late, so I thought it would be fun to look at the box office.

Right now, after 25 days in release, BS is about $100 million behind where Age of Ultron was at this point in its run, $80 million behind Dark Knight Rises, and over $60 million behind Iron Man 3.

So BS has made a lot of money. But making a lot of money is not the same thing as making as much money as WB wanted/needed this to. This movie was WB putting all of its major cards on the table – first Batman and Superman in a movie, first Wonder Woman in a movie, semi-adaptations of Dark Knight Returns and the best-known Superman story of the last few decades – and it underperformed. DC’s got nothing left to play in terms of hype; nobody cares about Aquaman, Cyborg, etc., and I’m hard pressed to think of anything they could put in the Justice League movie that will get general public butts in seats that wasn’t in BS.

So WB has, in the DC films, the equivalent of Divergent or any other instantly forgettable extruded film product. The movies make some box office, but nobody but hardcore fans cares or much remembers them, and they have basically no afterlife on Blu-Ray, cable, etc. This is not what WB needs from these characters – they need to match, if not be, Marvel. And that is not going to happen under this version of the DC characters.

And that leaves aside the absolutely toxic reviews of BS, which will probably hurt future movies as well.

ReplyReply
mygif

Not to mention that in addition to the darker, non-family-friendly tone, they’ve started off with long running times. Marvel films gradually increased that as they began to put more and more elements into them, and as fan loyalty increased. I think, say, The Avengers films are terrible partly because they rely on so much shorthand and previously existing commitment, but that commitment is there. Not the case with BvS.

ReplyReply
mygif
GenRincewind said on May 10th, 2016 at 10:17 am

Am I the only one here who really honestly liked the film a lot?

ReplyReply
mygif

Probably not, but I think it’s safe to say you’re in the minority. Nothing wrong with that–I love “Kung Pow: Enter the Fist”. :)

ReplyReply

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Please Note: Comment moderation may be active so there is no need to resubmit your comments