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King Monkey said on June 23rd, 2011 at 10:22 am

Of course, with the Authority (who were a pretty bloodthirsty bunch themselves) it becomes also “When will Superman step in and curb them?” which will kill much of their “appeal” as well.

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Honestly, I’m still thrown by this idea that the reboot, such as it is, is a chance to do so many new things rather than try and embody what would be seen as iconic symbols of the characters in question. Not only should Superman be saving kittens, but John Stewart should be the Justice League Green Lantern, both Raven and Starfire should be on the Teen Titans, and Harley Quinn should look like Harley Quinn.

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DistantFred said on June 23rd, 2011 at 10:35 am

My first thought on seeing the Stormwatch solicit was “Oh, great, the Martian Manhunter is now the guy who telepathically brainwashes people into being fascist Wildstorm supercops.”

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Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill said on June 23rd, 2011 at 10:48 am

To Paul Cornell and/or DC’s credit, he’s stated in interviews the the Manhunter’s presence is about friction between his more traditional superhero views and the actions Stormwatch takes. So I think, at least for this book, your points are taken into account.

That said, I think the overall tone is going to change, across all the lines, and I think, as well, that’s an long-term error for DC.

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Cookie McCool said on June 23rd, 2011 at 10:58 am

Aw, but Sandor Clegane’s nice to little girls! At least he doesn’t kill *all* of them.

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The kitten thing- I’m not sure how reliable it is, because Rich, but at the same time it does remind me of Dan Didio complaining “Well, how many of you want to read about Superman stopping bank robbers?” So it’s not entirely unbelievable.

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Kid Kyoto said on June 23rd, 2011 at 11:27 am

Which is why DC should have a multiverse…

DC already realized their characters work better when they have their own fictional cities that match the tone of the character, why not go the extra step and give them worlds that fit their tone?

This being comic book it in no way inhibits their ability to team up (most heroes can cross dimensions like we cross the street) and allows them to hand way away problems with a simple ‘this isn’t your world’.

The biggest problem with American comics is the shared universe! With 70+ years of history and 70+ titles a month things will never hold together or make sense and trying to shackle all these books together only hurts storytelling.

I still cling to hope that somehow the 52 books are actually 52 worlds but I fear that’s not going to happen.

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I’m skeptical about the kitten thing because they replaced it with a story about a sad puppy.

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The worst part is that the DCU already created their own Authority knockoffs so that Superman could kick their asses in “What’s So Funny About Truth, Justice, (Saving Kittens,) & the American Way?”

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Billy Corazon said on June 23rd, 2011 at 12:38 pm

If they’re incorporating Wildstorm, then I’m just waiting for Planetary to show up and be totally weirded out that none of the mainstream DC heroes are creepy, socio-politically complicated analogues of themselves.

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John 2.0 said on June 23rd, 2011 at 12:45 pm

So when Hawksmoore makes Gotham City do his ‘City as a giant mecha’ bit to fight, I don’t know, Mongol, does it have a giant bat-symbol on its chest?

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For all we know there’s a WildC.A.T.S team somewhere waiting to debut with Geo-Force on it for some reason. Which would be a bad, bad idea, but not as bad as putting the Authority in the DC Universe proper.

Far worse: At least the Authority doesn’t have Geo Force.

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Keep in mind that this is Stormwatch, not the Authority. In a reboot, there is no reason that they have to go to full on Authority levels of excess and brutality. I don’t see why the early Ellis Stormwatch tone is any worse than DC’s Checkmate or Suicide Squad in tone. Hawksmoor started out a pacifist. Just throw in a scene every now and then about the Midnighter having to work on his temper, and it should work out fine.

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Re: Superman and kittens.

I honestly don’t know if this is worse than the possibility of them yanking the story because of a Muslim hero or not. Really, what’s worse? Moral cowardice or a willingness to remove the only thing that really makes your flagship character unique in the current comics climate?

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The more I read about their plans, the more it seems like Dan Didio and Geoff Johns sat around and said, “Let’s do the same exact stuff we’ve always done, except we’ll get rid of any characters that came out after we were kids (except the ones we created) and then just make everything else “edgy”. To the EXTREME!!

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sprophet said on June 23rd, 2011 at 2:22 pm

Captains Britain and Drs Strange.

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First, here’s something I did for funsies: http://twitpic.com/5ez7qv

Now on to the topic at hand…you know, the problem I have with analyzing any of this is that I’ve come to the conclusion that this is all, ultimately, a smokescreen.

I don’t think the primary objective of either Marvel OR DC is to publish comic books, anymore. If it were, we as readers could be fans of a character as opposed to a writer or an artist’s interpetation of one – which in itself is a complete crapshoot in itself. (A comic book fan could like Grant Morrison’s comics because he’s picking up a vibe that Grant Morrison is someone whose primary objective is to WRITE COMIC BOOKS, as opposed to say Mark Millar, whose primary objective I’ve heard some argue is to write movie pitches DISGUISED AS comic books)

Basically, I feel as though our memories of a time when the Big Two USED to have comics on their front burner is being used against us. They’ll keep doing this so long as we can be made to think that whatever asinine reboot or status quo will MATTER. Meanwhile, how about checking out this TV show we’ve got coming down the pike? Or this video game? Ooooh hey, how about our movie? Ryan Reynolds is in it…

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anyone else thinks the dog will have rabies and Superman will have to put him down

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I have a strong suspicion that Apollo and Midnighter will undergo degayification when merged into the DC universe.

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Munkiman said on June 23rd, 2011 at 6:40 pm

Wildstorm in the DCU is probably a bad idea, but I don’t think it will change the overall tone too much. It’s like three books out of 52.

@cyd: Cornell confirmed that they’re staying gay.

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Shouldn’t that be GREGOR Clegane?

I’m going to controversially add another universe that DC absorbed, and shouldn’t: the Fourth World. “But Prankster,” you say, “Superman was part of the Fourth World right from the beginning!” Yes, but that’s more or less because they wouldn’t give Kirby his own books, and his intent was more along the lines of creating his own superhero universe (again). I’ve never really liked the mingling of the New Gods with the other DC characters; they work better in a world designed top-to-bottom by Kirby, rather than hanging out with Mr. Tawky Tawny and Booster Gold or whatever. That’s one of the few times I think Grant Morrison missed the boat on his interpretation of a DC character, which is a shame, because a Grant Morrison-written version of the New Gods ought to be utterly awesome.

Anyway, yeah. Wildstorm characters in DCU. Stupid idea. I’m not sure why they bothered with the 52 universes if they’re going to pull shit like this. By the way, what happens to characters like Tom Strong and Jack B. Quick, who explicitly don’t belong in a superhero universe? Or are they in legal limbo?

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wyrmsine said on June 23rd, 2011 at 9:59 pm

So we won’t be seeing any posts titled “Why I should write Deathblow”, then.

Anyway, I maintain some hope that the tone of Superman will lead the line, for as long as Morrison’s writing it. Small hope, but it’s all I’ve got in the face of so many hideous new costumes.

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Yeah, I posted similar thoughts about the DC reboot elsewhere earlier this week…

I like this less and less the more I think about it.

Lets ignore that – of the two comics I currently read monthly – one is essentially gone (RIP Secret Six) and the other will morph into the ONE DC book that costs four bucks (I wouldn’t be so annoyed if I knew the backups were more likely to be Batlash than, say, Scalphunter)

Lets ignore the fortieth Superman reboot … and the way it will inevitably muck up the Legion’s history again.

Lets ignore the changes to the Batman line (though they’re making that REALLY hard)

Lets ignore missed opportunity to fix Wonder Woman.

Lets ignore all the DC stuff.

Lets talk about Wildstorm (specifically the Authority)..

I know DC has a long history of buying other comic companies and folding them into their universe but most of Wildstorm doesn’t really work alongside the DCU because part of what makes their characters special is the world they live in. If DC is the ideological aspiration of what a world with superhumans could be and Marvel is a more plausible take on what it would be then Wildstorm – with its godlike fascists controlling the world – is the worst case scenario.

A lot of the fun in books like Majestic: Strange New Visitor and Captain Atom: Armageddon is seeing how characters react to a world other than their own. Captain Atom is a particularly interesting case since he’s outraged by the way superhuman oppressors have crippled the resolve of everyone from the man on the street to the President. It isn’t really surprising either since the Authority aren’t that fundamentally different from the Crime Syndicate … and – like the CSA – they go unchecked because they operate on a parallel world which means the JLA is reluctant to get involved. If they coexisted then the JLA would HAVE to get involved and the world isn’t big enough for both groups. Obviously DC isn’t going to let Apollo kill Superman so the end result is a defanged Authority and that completely removes the thing that defines them in the first place.

I don’t think Stormwatch would fare much better and – depending how he’s used – Majestic either falls into the same group or is rendered redundant by Superman. Gen13 and Wildcats could probably be made to fit (though both are better fits for Marvel) and Tranquility would certainly work fine since it felt more like a DC book than a Wildstorm book anyway.

Also, it’s never been more obvious that DC has had no idea what to do with Martian Manhunter since Joe Kelly left JLA.

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@Prankster

Nope, Sandor is your Punisher-type, a very bad man who fights even worse people and has just enough goodness left in him to be morally ambiguous. In Marvel he could be a hero; in DC he’d be a villain.

There is no universe where Gregor Clegane would be a hero.

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One area that Wildstorm tackled (at least in WildCATs) that isn’t usually seen is superheroes as CEOs. Spartan takes alien tech, reproduces it and sells it to the mass market for billions. He’s not just a superhero; he has money behind him, which in turn adds to his influence.

In the DC universe, money doesn’t matter. Superheroes are already billionaires or live off some kind of unlimited savings account where they don’t usually have to work to earn money.

Anyway, it is a bad fit. I might buy the first Stormwatch – not that it is STORMWATCH, which was a UN-sanctioned superteam until they pulled funding from it so it morphed into the Authority – just to see how badly things jar.

Also, Apollo and the Midnighter will still be gay, but they just won’t do gay things. Like touch.

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This is squarely why i have misgivings about this.Violating the core principles of your story or characters usually leads to a disaster, OMD being Exhibit A. Peter Parker’s career as Spiderman is tied to a vow. For him to then turn around and negate a vow to his wife, via a deal with the devil, simply doesn’t matchup with the core values of the character. When you go this route, “There be dragons here”.

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fsherman said on June 24th, 2011 at 7:06 am

Captain Marvel worked fine back when he was Earth S–as someone pointed out upthread, there’s no problem with a clash of tone when each tone has its own world to play with. Trying to fit him into the post-Crisis DCU, much harder.
If the kittens-in-trees story is accurate … oy, vey. I can understand their feelings, actually, but–well, that is what makes Superman Superman.

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Kid Kyoto:

DC already realized their characters work better when they have their own fictional cities that match the tone of the character, why not go the extra step and give them worlds that fit their tone?

See, I was thinking just this thing as I was going through the post. A lot of the DC heroes ARE larger than life. Superman is always racing off to Kenya to stop volcanoes or Myanmar to stick his head in civil wars. Batman makes regular trips to China for business or pleasure. Wonder Woman has her own separate island with an entire pantheon of Gods surrounding it. Green Lantern battles invading space aliens regularly, assuming he’s even on Earth half the time.

These guys should be stepping on each others’ toes WAY more often than they typically do. Sure, breaking each hero off into his own universe kinda puts the cabosh on the JLA. And it would be good to kinda work your way around that. But with every hero having his own international array of villains and sidekicks and organizational side-notes it might not be a bad idea to give these guys some room to breath, rather than cramming increasing numbers of heroes within a perpetually cramped setting.

It just seems kinda silly to watch Batman and Penguin punching it out over some drug smuggling deal when Superman is simultaneously trying to keep War World from nuking the northern hemisphere. These guys need a bit more space.

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And why shouldn’t Superman rescue kittens? Ma and Pa Kent raised him to help people whenever you can. It’s the kind of corny scene that illustrates that Superman, at his core, is a Good Person.

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Because kids these days don’t want to see superheroes rescuing kittens. Kids want to see superheroes torturing and cutting limbs off the vile scum who raped and murdered their wives and girlfriends.

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Peztopiary said on June 24th, 2011 at 3:30 pm

“So when Hawksmoore makes Gotham City do his ‘City as a giant mecha’ bit to fight, I don’t know, Mongol, does it have a giant bat-symbol on its chest?”

No Batman already planned for Hawksmoore’s city armor and uses EMP generators placed at specific points to make the city work for him instead.

Honestly, Batman hanging out with the folks from the Authority would be hilarious.
“I’m literally the collected wisdom of humanity, the sole repository of magic in an increasingly mundane world.”
“Nope, I used this doo-hickey to siphon all your powers. The collected wisdom of everyone means nothing next to my overwhelming need to beat up the poors for killing my parents. Time to go non-lethally subdue Joker for billionth time.”

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Gustopher said on June 24th, 2011 at 3:34 pm

I think kids would be happy to see superheroes torturing and cutting limbs off the vile scum who raped and murdered their kittens.

The best of both worlds. Not saving kittens, avenging kittens!

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@Beacon,

Can Wonder Woman be fixed as a character?

Despite DC’s constant reassurance that WW is part of their Top 3, it seems WW has always been extremely boring.

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damanoid said on June 24th, 2011 at 6:57 pm

@Zenrage:

“Despite DC’s constant reassurance that WW is part of their Top 3, it seems WW has always been extremely boring.”

Well, originally she was extremely into bondage and discipline. But it’s been a long time.

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King Monkey said on June 24th, 2011 at 7:06 pm

And Aquaman. Hey, put Aquaman AND MM in the Authority. That will sell!

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dangermouse said on June 24th, 2011 at 8:20 pm

Minor correction: the Authority’s core tone was “this is what the Justice League would be like if they weren’t STUPID, you IDIOT, hEh” *knifes BAD GUY in the throat*

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dangermouse said on June 24th, 2011 at 9:05 pm

Also: the problem with doing Stormwatch instead of the Authority is that nobody ever gave anything resembling a fuck about Stormwatch, until it turned into the Authority. (Except for that little bit of it still being Stormwatch where Ellis was setting it up to be the Authority)

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@damanoid

True, but being a pre-WWII fetish model is hardly grounds for good character development – or lacking it entirely.

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@ Zenrage

I’ll admit that Wonder Woman is a tricky subject. I like a lot of the trappings (the Greek Mythology, the secret agents, amazons, ect) but don’t particularly like the character. I don’t outright hate her like I do Hal Jordan and Hawkman but I think her core concept of being a warrior who preaches peace makes her a bit of a hypocrite. Admittedly the same is true for most superheroes but most superheroes don’t make that a central piece of characterization. Plus, she just isn’t a very nice person (and not even in a “Batman is a jerk but he means well” way or a “Midnighter is a horrible person and I can’t stop watching” way). The last time (okay, ONLY time) I really got into her series was the Gail Simone run and I liked that run in spite of how horrible she was to everyone (especially the way she strung poor Nemesis along for the entire run).

Still, I get the sense that SOME people must like her for her to have this much staying power and JMS abandoning all the iconic stuff and effectively turning her into a new character is every bit as bad as Superman ignoring the plight of treed felines.

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magus_69 said on June 25th, 2011 at 4:11 am

Superman shouldn’t rescue kittens? SUPERMAN SHOULDN’T RESCUE KITTENS?

I finally know how the Nostalgia Critic feels when someone says “Bat Credit Card.”

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@ Beacon

As for Wonder Woman, I didn’t see her as unlikable in the Simone run. Now I may not be the biggest Wondy specialist but I definitely loved her since she was kind & compassionate in the Jimenez ( the confrontation with Circe was just perfect, she basically told her “Yes I’m an Idealist! Yes I may be wrong, But I believe in helping others & improving this world. If you see it as useless & foolish , suit yourself, but it’s not stupider than your pointless nihilism!”) Perez (you all knew this one was coming)WML (yes I loved that run! I loved her stint at Taco Bell! Sue me!) & Rucka (except for his Cheetah where he really didn’t get Dr Minerva’s personna & until the gorgon crap, it was a direction that would have proved interesting with the gods wearing casual attires) runs.
I always saw Diana more as a pacifist who negotiates before fighting,but most of the time well her foes don’t leave her much choice , they kind of force her to fight back, pacifism never meant being totally passive but avoid violence while it’s still possible to rationalise but when the chips are done bring it on!

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Jason Barnett said on June 25th, 2011 at 12:18 pm

Wonder Woman isn’t a nice person?

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Words that make my heart leap with joy: “See: Dr. Strange. More on this next week.”

Also: “Dr. Strange or the Silver Surfer could, in any properly written story, kick [the Sentry's] ass”

In case I’m not making it clear, I want more Doctor Strange! Marvel isn’t giving it to me, so I turn to you, Mighty God King!

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Consumer Unit 5012 said on June 28th, 2011 at 12:32 pm

Because kids these days don’t want to see superheroes rescuing kittens. Kids want to see superheroes torturing and cutting limbs off the vile scum who raped and murdered their wives and girlfriends.

Actually, “kids these days” mostly want to read manga.

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Jack Balfour said on June 30th, 2011 at 11:24 am

I think there are times when the pseudorealistic style enters the DC universe and works well. Morrison’s Seven Soldiers is some of his most fantastic writing, but he also included D-list superhero celebrities trying to bum a living on the convention circuit.

OTOH, Identity Crisis was a disaster.

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[...] Speaking of huge mistakes – MightyGodKing nailed it. The integration of the Wildstorm titles into the DCU is a huge mistake. The Wildstorm [...]

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