From last week’s open house:
Mike From Nowhere: 2 Man 2 Steel is going to feature Lex Luthor and they’ve talked about businessman-genius Luthor. (It’s not official, but come ON.) How best to translate Luthor to the big screen?
I endorse the Luthor-as-super-Renaissance-man concept that works the best. Luthor is a super-genius scientist AND a super-businessman AND in top physical condition, because he is driven to excel at all things. It makes him the ideal opponent for Superman – the man who can do everything versus the man who can do anything. Also it means he can wear his power suit, by which I mean “a really nice suit,” which has always been Luthor’s most intimidating look. (The battlesuit overcompensates.)
John: Your Dr. Strange series has been amazing. Any chance you’ll do (or even a few one-shots) of “I Should Write Superman”? Or what you would do if you had a year’s run of Action/Superman/some other similar book?
In the first place, the reason I liked doing the Legion ones and the reason I like doing the Dr. Strange ones is because both of those properties let one play on the fringes of their respective universes, which is great. This is not to say that there are not tons of Superman minutiae which are fun, but everybody has their list of Superman minutiae they would bring back in a comic in a new and improved form (like when Kurt Busiek brilliantly re-imagined the Prankster, for example). There is a long, long lineup for Superman – and the Avengers, and Batman, and the X-Men, and Spidey, and so forth – and that leads itself to a certain sort of conservatism and a little less freedom to experiment with tone.
Or, to put it another way: my prototype for an extended run on a corporate property is more along the lines of Jason Aaron’s Ghost Rider run. Think that level, rather than Superman.
(Also, I would be terrified of writing Superman. I have no idea how people summon the hubris to write it.)
Aussiesmurf: What’s your favourite in-continuity story for each of the following characters that DOESN’T significantly affect the status quo :
1. Batman
2. Superman
3. Spider-Man
1. “Blades” by James Robinson and Tim Sale in Legends of the Dark Knight
2. “The Miraculous Return of Jonathan Kent” by Cary Bates and Curt Swan in Action Comics
3. “The Thousand” by Garth Ennis and John McCrea in Spider-Man’s Tangled Web
JayDzed: Which is the most overplayed, really-limited-joke character in mainstream comics, Deadpool or Lobo?
Lobo, because Deadpool can be used for more jokes. Lobo is only really good for Alan Grant/Keith Giffen style over-the-top violent satire. Deadpool has wider range.
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Idris Elba as Lex Luthor.
Other than “personification of the American Dream punching a black guy in the face”, good idea or bad idea?
It has that worrying Cast Idris Elba In Every Nerd Thing trend attached to it.
That said, why is there never any love for doughy super gangster Luthor who wears a skin tight evil science suit regardless of his obvious paunch?
He was the longest lasting version of Luthor and no one ever speaks out for him.
Michael, what do you have against Idris Elba? As many people who complained about a black guy playing Heimdall, how many racists do you think would bitch about him playing a character they’ve actually heard of?
Idris Elba hasn’t really demonstrated that much range over his career. Maybe the upcoming Mandela biopic will change that, but thus far Elba has shown he can play exactly two characters: Stringer Bell and Idris Elba, Noble Badass.
Which: don’t get me wrong, Noble Badass Idris Elba is pretty cool and all. But…
whoever plays lex luthor needs to be just as cool as the joke idea of Don Draper with a shaved head. Am I saying that Jon Hamm is the absolute best choice one could make for Lex Luthor? Fuck yeah.
Yeah, I got two issues with the Idris Elba thing. Firstly, he’s essentially played The Idris Elba Character in everything he’s been in, which isn’t a bad thing such but he’s not the greatest actor ever.
Secondly, while I’m not accusing anyone here of this, I kinda get the feeling, especially from that non white guy Doctor Who thing a while back, that he’s occasionally getting named because he’s the only black actor people can name who isn’t Will Smith, regardless of his appropriateness to the role.
as for lobo, I really wish people caught on to the ‘captain jack sparrow of the DC Universe’ 52 was pushing, because i think it fits him better than obviously derpy second string wolverine.
I hate when people refer to Deadpool as a joke character, because when he’s written right, he’s not. He’s funny, but that’s not the same thing, because his humor is born of tragedy. If I had to describe Deadpool in one sentence, it’d be, “He hates himself and he wants to die, but he can’t.” Hilarious.
Oh yeah. Joe Kelly’s Deadpool run, which is a really excellent run of comics, is really kinda utterly grim.
As far as Idris Elba goes, There’s also Luther where he’s “Angry, Morally-Compromised Columbo”.
As for black Doctors, I’ve wanted Paterson Joseph in the role ever since 1997, where he basically *did* play the role in Neverwhere.
Lex Luthor is PERFECT for a second movie villain. Not only would I feel marginalized by Superman if I was Lex (“I work my ass off to be the best and this ALIEN just has it handed to him?”), but Superman is Fucking Terrifying in the movie. They could easily write him as a HIGHLY sympathetic villain.
I like the idea of a Steve Jobs style Lex, suave and charismatic to the public, but a total bastard behind closed doors.
Luthor was a mad scientist in the 40s because science was rapidly changing the world and it scared the bejeezus out of people. Luthor was a business tycoon in the 80s because vast fortunes were consolidating and changing the world and it scared the bejeezus out of people. He became president in 2000 because the Clinton era was filled with government-related paranoia and it scared the bejeezus out of people.
Thus: (a) people need to secure their bejeezuses a little better so they don’t pop out so often, and (b) Luthor works best not because he’s a mad scientist, tycoon, or POTUS. He is That Which Makes Us Feel Powerless. Luthor embodies whatever it is that makes us feel small and impotent. Which makes sense, as Superman is intended to make us feel powerful.
So what should Luthor be in Man of Tomorrow? What makes people feel small and useless and overwhelmed and endangered today? I’d go with the Titan of Industry model, a man who is not necessarily the uber-genius himself, but owns uber-geniuses and is himself quite brilliant, and who is not POTUS but has so much political pull he may as well be.
This version is not a physical threat to Superman, because nobody can be. However, in the areas where Superman’s power can’t be directly applied, Luthor is vastly more powerful.
It would be hilarious to break out the old purple-and-green jumpsuit look, though.
Spider-Mans Tangled Web was such an astonishingly good series. The Garth Ennis issue about Crusher Creel is really good and kinda tragic.
Aussiesmurf’s Question: Its weird to me that most of my favorite Batman and Spider-Man stories are so “big”. Almost all my favorite Superman stories are Elseworlds or similar though.
JayDzed’s Question: Deadpool is actually a pretty interesting character that has been writen poorly and overexposed over time. Lobo is about a one-note as you can get.
Lex Luthor is the logical villain after Man of Steel’s hugely destructive debut, but I’m not sure I’d want him. I’m afraid he’d be too sympathetic, him saying that Superman does more harm than good would actually be completely accurate, and I can’t see him looking like a threat to Captain Throw-Em-Thru-A-Building. I’m all for a sympathetic villain, and I think Luthor should definitely have a point, but I don’t want him to look like the hero, y’know?
I’d kind of prefer Brainiac for a villain, because then this version of Superman would definitely be about having massive brawls with alien invaders.
Definitely agree with MGK on the fringes of a comic universe being more interesting than the big stuff. It’s just so much easier for a story to be adventurous and have a real sense of danger to it when it doesn’t have to preserve a 50 year old franchise trademark.
Are there any other characters or teams that you’d be terrified to write though? Any that you’d be terrified to write but still would?
Also, how about “Why I Should Write Heroes for Hire”? Doc Strange and Legion are both pretty high concept, how would you feel about something a bit more street level?
It didn’t occur to me until you put it just that way, but the perfect Lex Luthor is essentially evil Batman.
The Crusher Hogan story in Tangled Web was indeed excellent, but it was Brian Azzarello and Raven, not Ennis.
Ah, right you are. I remembered that Raven cowrote it, but I mixed up azzarello and Ennis.
Idris Elba has also proven able to play the role of interplanetary pizza delivery man.
“Lex Luthor is the logical villain after Man of Steel’s hugely destructive debut, but I’m not sure I’d want him. I’m afraid he’d be too sympathetic, him saying that Superman does more harm than good would actually be completely accurate, and I can’t see him looking like a threat to Captain Throw-Em-Thru-A-Building. I’m all for a sympathetic villain, and I think Luthor should definitely have a point, but I don’t want him to look like the hero, y’know?”
Actually, he’s kind of perfect. He gets to play the Joker game of “The only way you’ll beat me is by proving me right”: The only way Batman can truly defeat the Joker is by killing him, whereas the only way Superman can ever reach Ivory Tower Luthor is by ignoring everything he’s trying to uphold. He’s the one thing he can’t simply punch away, and thus there is no easy answer.
Sorry, trying to get the hang of this system.
“Lex Luthor is the logical villain after Man of Steel’s hugely destructive debut, but I’m not sure I’d want him. I’m afraid he’d be too sympathetic, him saying that Superman does more harm than good would actually be completely accurate, and I can’t see him looking like a threat to Captain Throw-Em-Thru-A-Building. I’m all for a sympathetic villain, and I think Luthor should definitely have a point, but I don’t want him to look like the hero, y’know?”
I had misread your post earlier. But while Luthor might seem sympathetic, show him for the hypocrite that he is: show him bullying and toying with the average person in a way that makes clear that his position is ultimately for his own benefit. He doesn’t want Superman gone simply because he’s dangerous; that’s how he rationalizes it to other people. He wants Superman gone because he’s no longer the biggest kid in the yard. Using Byrne’s Luthor as a baseline for attitude (though not looks or anything) would go a long way to showing that.
“because he’s the only black actor people can name who isn’t Will Smith..”
Eddie Murphy, Samuel L. Jackson, Morgan Freeman, Chris Rock…
quite a list of unknowns.
No Denzel, Bryan?
And Jamie Foxx seems to be rising up as well.
“he’s the only black actor people can name who isn’t Will Smith, regardless of his appropriateness to the role”
I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s popular with nerds in part because he’s from England, in part because he’s “new”, and in part because he’s done a fair amount of genre work.
More black actors…
Donald Glover – Really ought to be in more comic movies seeing as the man is a HUGE geek.
Donald Faison – Probably also a big nerd seeing as he does voice work on Robot Chicken all the time though most now him from Scrubs.
Danny Glover – Might be too old for this shit.
Wesley Snipes – Is he still in jail?
OJ Simpson – Please tell me he’s still in jail.
Snipes got out of jail on the same week Thatcher died, if I remember correctly.
It was a good week.
Wesley Snipes is still probably kinda crazy, though.
If only Clancy Brown was a little younger I’d just say shave his head and give him the role. I mean, he’s got some acting chops beyond doing voice work and while I wouldn’t go so far as to say his animated Luthor is as iconic as Mark Hamill’s Joker it’s certainly up there as one of the best representations of the character outside of comics.
“Kinda crazy” doesn’t really take Snipes out of the running. Guys like Tom Cruise seem to be doing okay.
(looks at typo in last post and wishes there was a bigger edit window)
I think Idris Elba would be a good Lex Luthor not because he’s the only black dude my poor white self knows about, but because he would be a good Lex Luthor. Look at it this way: if Stringer Bell had survived Season 3 and smartened up, he would basically already be the post-Crisis Luthor – someone who came from nothing and did a lot of bad things before becoming so rich that none of it could stick to him. Smarter than anyone else in the room and far more dangerous because he would do anything for power.
Read THE UNAUTHORIZED BIOGRAPHY OF LEX LUTHOR – even after a couple retcons, it’s still one of the best Luthor stories ever, and it doesn’t hinge on Luthor knowing Clark Kent in Smallville. Luthor grows up in Suicide Slum, kills his abusive parents for the insurance money, and then painstakingly climbs his way up the ladder rung by rung until he rules Metropolis. And then Superman appears, and Lex loses his mind because there’s someone stronger and better than him who he can’t buy or kill. Lex IS physically imposing, but he doesn’t need to so much as raise his voice because everyone in the room already and always knows who is in charge. To the public he’s an inventor and magnate, on the cover of TIME in a Steve Jobs turtleneck, but when the doors close the menace comes out. The challenge for Superman AND Clark Kent is somehow proving to Metropolis that Luthor’s public face isn’t his real face, and that he’s got a lot of blood on his hands.
Alternately, you could do early-Silver Age Luthor, a dude so hardcore he never even bothered to change out of his prison khakis between escapes, because every moment of his life was dedicated to doing dirt.
““Kinda crazy” doesn’t really take Snipes out of the running. Guys like Tom Cruise seem to be doing okay.”
There’s “outspoken proponent of Scientology” crazy and there’s “difficult and detrimental to work with” crazy. One of those Hollywood will overlook, the other it won’t. By all accounts the biggest problem with Blade 3 was Snipes himself. I don’t know whether he burned any bridges in the process or how badly if so, but I’m not sure he’s got the sort of clout to pull stuff like that and still get primo jobs in blockbuster triple-A movies.
I knew I should have gone with my first instinct and typed “Guys like Tom Cruise amd Christian Bale seem to be doing okay”. Cruise’s crazy goes deeper than religion and lots of people in Hollywood are infamously dificult to work with. Lets face it, the RDJ of the 90s never could have carried Marvel’s cenematic universe because he was a mess. No one is a completely lost cause … except maybe Charlie Sheen.
Lex Luthor = Billy Zane
C’mon guys, no one else need even apply.
Honestly Robert Downy Jr. for Iron Man, while a brilliant bit of stunt casting, was originally considered something of a risky move for Marvel. At that point people had basically filed him in the “peaked and it’s all downhill from here” bin, so it wasn’t exactly a slam-dunk that A). RDJ got his shit together enough to do it and B). Marvel was willing to give him a shot at being the frontrunner of their new cinematic franchise. That it all worked out as well as it did is one of those “true Hollywood success stories” you hear so much about.
@Kai
Yeah that’s what i’ve read is the problem with Wesley Snipes. Tom might believe in thetans but accounts seem to indicate the guy is hard working and relatively easy to work with.
I read somewhere an interview with Patton Oswalt that on Blade 3 Snipes basically started strangling David Goyer because a black extra was wearing a t-shirt that said ‘Garbage’. Obviously not knowing that the extras had picked their own clothes for the scene.
Also he apparently was ‘in-character’ when not on set as well, which consisted of him saying “I’m Blade.”
There are lots of black actors out there, but (a) probably only about a third of them would fit any given role, and (b) lots of them are famous for being themselves rather than for their acting or particular characters. (Both of which could be said of white actors too, of course. I wouldn’t want to see Tom Cruise cast as Superman.)
Call me racist, but I can’t picture myself enjoying a Superman movie in which Lex Luthor is played by Chris Rock, Donald Glover, or Eddie Murphy. Danny Glover probably is too old for it, yes. Morgan Freeman is even older, and has the added problem that it’s hard to think of him as anything other than a good guy. (Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t think so.) Samuel L. Jackson is fun to watch, but he’s not playing different characters so much as he’s playing the same character repeatedly. And it’s often bad to have a big-name actor playing a certain character because the actor overshadows the character, so that’s another strike against Jackson, Freeman, and other A-listers of several different races.
I think Jamie Foxx could play Lex Luthor as well as anyone. The only reason I’d vote against him if it were up for a vote is the reason mentioned in the first comment here.
Samuel L. Jackson would be hilariously bad for a character like Lex Luthor. I remember how terrible he was when he tried to play subtle in Unbreakable.
Speaking of Unbreakable, Bruce Willis is another guy that has managed to do well in Hollywood despite being difficult to get along with.
here’s a couple questions if you’re still doing those
How much overlap is there in the skill sets of the sorcerer supreme and a normal magic user?
How effective would someone who isn’t the Sorcerer Supreme, but had skills in those sorts of magics be against the type of threats Dr. Strange deals with?
What can other types of magic users do against beings like Dormammu? You had your idea, a while back, about Dormammu attacking Dr. Strange when he was exhasuted and all Strange could do was teleport away for help. What if they pop up over Asgard? What are the results of a Thor vs Dormammu fight?
Was I the only one that noticed the subtle way the Kryptonian battle armor looked like the classic Luthor purple and green armor?
They should get someone that’s really good at playing an evil mean bastard for Lex Luthor, maybe Gene Hackman.
How about Riz Ahmed from Four Lions as Lex Luthor?
No, he’s not black. He’s a Brit of South Asian descent. He’s a year older than Henry Cavill. And he’s 5’8″, which seems appropriate for a non-superpowered foe of Superman. (Cavill’s 6’1″).
I mean, I know Anthony Mackie and Don Cheadle, but I can’t see either of those dudes as Luthor. Maybe Chiwetel Ejiofor, but considering that he was a villain in the last genre movie he did, I doubt he wants to be typecast that way. (But I love love love the idea of a Black Luthor. Maybe that’s the animated series, I don’t know, but it really appeals to me for some reason.)
Speaking of Stringer Bell, what about Lance Reddick , who plays Daniels in the Wire, for a black Luthor?
Beacon:
Deadpool is actually a pretty interesting character that has been writen poorly and overexposed over time. Lobo is about a one-note as you can get.
Ahh, that would explain it. I haven’t read any early Deadpool stuff, but the increasingly visible work lately has been getting more and more irritating.*
Lobo, OTOH, the only time I’ve ever seen him be interesting was Slobo in Young Justice, who was most notable for being so much not like all the other portrayals of the character.
I’d kinda like to see more of him, really, but then I’d love to see more classic YJ in general, before it all got screwed up by repeated mega-crossovers and deaths/retcons.
(*) I’ve noted over the years that Liefeld seems to be good to really good at creating characters, but should never be allowed to write, or gods forbid, attempt to draw them.
Bender:
He plays a very good and disturbing villain in Person of Interest, but I’d think he’s too old for Luthor.
I do like the suggestion above of Elba as Luthor being an extension/extrapolation of Stringer Bell from The Wire
I think a black Lex Luthor would be interesting, but only if they actually engaged with his race as part of his origin. I don’t mean that he’d run around talking about Superman as “The latest White Man keeping me down,” but that part of his ruthlessness would come from fighting against a system that subtly (and not so subtly) discriminated against him because of his race. Luthor being willing to do anything to rise and prove himself better than others gets an extra sting that way.
Mind you, I don’t think a black Lex Luthor in Man of Steel 2 would actually do that, so I don’t know if it would be a good idea. It’s not an inherently bad idea-there are worse things than having a highly intelligent, articulate character for a black actor-but it wouldn’t automatically enhance the role, either.
@JayDzed
Actually I’d say Deadpool shares a lot with Wolverine on a meta level.
The people who created the characters aren’t the ones responsible for making them interesting. They were just generic Hulk and X-Force foes until Claremont and Kelly came along.
Then they became popular and got so overexposed that all but a few die-hards became sick of them and the majority of their stories were written by hacks.
Lobo might be a device to retell the same joke* over and over again but I think the character has passed through relatively few hands compared to Deadpool.
*I loved Young Justice but still thought Slobo was the weak link.
PS: It is worth noting that the correct answer to “who is better; Deadpool or Lobo?” is “Ambush Bug!”
Billy Zane as Luthor is oddly appealing. You’ve got this ridiculously handsome, weird guy who seems awfully charismatic for some reason. And he already shaves his head, supposedly because it helps with his swimming. He would be great if the movie was trying to sell the idea that the public loves him. I don’t know if Zane has the acting chops to play a believable villain but still… if people here were writing the script he’d be a great candidate.
Was Luthor really supposed to be African American on the cartoon? I thought he just had a tan. Anyway…
I’m not really an Idris Elba fan, although he was perfectly fine as Heimdall. My issues with the Thor movie centered around Natalie “Why do nerds think she’s some kind of sex goddess?” Portman and the guy who played Volstagg. Anyway…
I grew up reading pre-COIE comics and I was in junior high when Luthor suddenly became a fat businessman. So, “my” Luthor is closer to the guy in the green and purple suit who did stuff like breaking into Fort Knox just to prove he could do it. I can’t really see Elba as the best choice for the arrogant Bond villain prone to speeches about people not appreciating his genius-type Luthor.
I dunno… Can Grant Morrison act? That would be delightfully meta.
No one things the guy who played Volstagg is some kind of sex goddess 😉
Was Luthor really supposed to be African American on the cartoon? I thought he just had a tan. Anyway…
Cartoon Luthor was meant to be based on Telly Savalas’ Blofeld. Telly’s natural Greek tan was why Luthor was darker than the other characters.
Apparently Mark Strong is shooting for the role as well.
Cartoon Luthor was meant to be based on Telly Savalas’ Blofeld. Telly’s natural Greek tan was why Luthor was darker than the other characters.
If I remember correctly, everyone was supposed to receive a standard skin tone, just like everyone received a standard body type- like how all of the women in Justice League have a similar body and different hair. But someone added too much red, and everyone came out much darker.
You can see here that Luthor and Superman both have the same skin tone:
http://worldsfinestonline.com/WF/superman/reviews/alittlepieceofhome/17.jpg
Also here:
http://worldsfinestonline.com/WF/superman/reviews/alittlepieceofhome/Pan12.jpg
And here we see a bunch of background characters with similar skin tone:
http://worldsfinestonline.com/WF/superman/reviews/alittlepieceofhome/Pan04.jpg
On Deadpool, I got away from reading comics in general about the time they handed him over to Daniel Way. Which I count as a blessing. Never could get into Way’ s writing, and thought “well, there goes that character…” Now I see that Deadpool is showing up every where, and I’m kind of glad I jumped ship when I did. He shouldn’t ever be a mainstream character. It’s cool for him to have a huge fan base, because he is a great character, but he shouldn’t be a member of the core books,in my opinion.
A minor point – Deadpool wasn’t just a fallow field until Kelly found him. There were two Deadpool minis in the early 90s, one written by Nicieza and one by Mark Waid (!) that took a character who had up to then been more or less a complete cipher and gave him most of the attributes he still has today – his tragic backstory, his desire to be a hero, a few villains, his “best friend” Weasel. The Kelly series started a couple years after the Waid series and picked up where the last book left off.
I think I’d try to do Luthor as the protagonist of a classic Shakespearean tragedy: a wealthy, powerful man who struggles against his own arrogance and spitefulness, but ultimately succumbs. Superman wouldn’t even be really part of the story, he’d just be there to make Luthor’s downfall official and pick up the pieces.
Noble Bad Ass Idris Elba vs. A Superman who is the last member of a race that just killed millions during which he didn’t show much concern for collateral damage? I mean I love the Noble Luthor driven by mad by paranoia to defend humanity and all but isn’t that stacking the deck a bit?
I should answer my own question regarding the best in-continuity stories :
1. Batman – Blind Justice
2. Superman – For The Man Who Has Everything
3. Spider-Man – Maybe Next Year.
You want a black Lex Luthor?
Morgan Freeman is too old, Elba lacks range and is “token black man for nerd picks”, Jackson is already Fury (and while he has the acting chops to maybe pull it off, the audience won’t go for it).
My pick would be Andre Braugher (“the black guy in the Mist” for a nerd shorthand). He’s got the range (really, he does) and could pull off the role of “asshole who stands up to a god out of sheer arrogance” really well. The only downside I see is that he may be too old to really convey Luthor. Although that could play into the whole idea of “mortal man versus immortal alien” a bit.
Andre Braugher. Interesting. He was awesome in “Last Resort”, if anybody beside me watched that show.
[…] asked the chief a rather loaded question about Lobo and Deadpool being “overplayed, […]
Brian T., there must’ve been enough of us for it to get a season.
I could have sworn Luthor was Black in the animated series. But then, River Song reads as a WoC to me half the time, so obviously YMMV.
You couldn’t do worse than Steven T. Seagle, who wrote an entire graphic novel about how intimidated he was to write Superman, and then went on to write some of the worst Superman comics ever, which were so hated that the entire sequence was erased from continuity the moment it was completed.