Recently, MGK made a delightful post in which he calmly and eloquently asked all of the sexist/racist/homophobic assholes in fandom to kindly fuck off out of our collective lives. I wholeheartedly approve of this gesture. This probably doesn’t surprise many people, because if I wasn’t the sort of person that wholeheartedly approved of this gesture, I wouldn’t have been the kind of person who gets asked to do guest columns for a site that makes this gesture.
The post spawned comments, which is unsurprising. One of the occasional themes in these comments was, “But if these people fuck off out of our collective lives, how will we ever convince them to be better people? We can’t be continually hostile to them. We have to engage them and sway them with well-reasoned discussion instead of attacking them.” This is a theme I wanted to address further, while making it very clear that I am not speaking for the site, only for myself, and that MGK reserves the right to make his own further responses on this topic. With that said, here goes.
This is an understandable impulse. We all understand the way that people get defensive when someone makes them feel like they’re in the wrong, and we all want to believe that we can bring people around to our point of view. Plus, there is kind of a deep-seated social conditioning against actively telling someone, “Fuck off out of our collective lives”, at least directly to their face. So I can get wanting to find a different way to handle the racist/sexist/homophobic assholes.
But that presumes that these people are arguing in good faith. It takes as a basic assumption that when someone shows up on a message board, forum, comments section, private email of a person who criticized their favorite comic book, voicemail of someone whose phone number they dug up, whatever, that they are attempting to engage in an actual discussion about the subject of whether sexism/racism/homophobia in comics and fandom is genuine and undesirable. And it also assumes that even though they have staked out a position and feel strongly about it, they are willing to listen to counter-arguments.
This is obviously wrong. If someone has gotten to the point where they say this (which is an actual motherfucking thing that was actually sent to Janelle Asselin):
“Women in comics are the deviation, the invading body, the cancer. We are the cure, the norm, the natural order. All you are is a pair of halfway decent tits, a c*nt and a loud mouth. But see, it doesn’t matter how loud you get. It doesn’t matter how many of your lezbo tumblr and twitter fangirl friends agree with you and reinforce your views. You can be all “I’m not going to be silent about misogyny so f*ck you!” all you want. In the end all you are is a pathetic little girl trying to effect change and failing to make a dent. You might as well try to drain the ocean of fish. That’s the kind of battle you face with people like me. We won’t quit. We won’t stop attacking. We won’t give up. Ever.”
Then I think it’s pretty goddamn safe to say that they are no longer arguing in good faith. At that point, I think it’s pretty motherfucking safe to say that their only intention as far as engaging you in dialogue is concerned is to punish you for continuing to talk. This is not speech as an exchange of ideas. This is speech used as a weapon to threaten, harass and intimidate. There is no longer any point in attempting to discuss the issue with these people. At this point, all you can really do is fight back.
So yes. This is the point where people like me make it clear to people like whoever wrote that message that no, they will quit. They will stop attacking. They will give up. Because people like me will shout them the fuck down just the same way they’re trying to shout down women in comics. And despite their pathetic, miserable, whiny delusions, there are more of us and we are louder than they are. And yes, this means that they may never change. They may persist in the belief that they’re the real victim here, and we may never have the chance to convince them otherwise.
But at least they’ll shut the fuck up about it, which is more than they’re doing now.
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To be honest, I can’t even be angry at such comments. All that’s left to me is abject confusion. The sheer level of… utter delusion that is evident from that writing is something I completely cannot comprehend.
Maybe I’m just too much of a modern 21st century male but I flat out cannot understand the basic premise of thinking of women like this.
How many generations until this shit dies out?
Another part of the whole “what assholes need is tolerance and endless patient understanding instead of being told to fuck right off” thing is that it attempts to absolve the asshole-er of responsibility while placing that burden on the asshole-ee.
In addition to being patently bullshit (“sure he may be a sexist/racist/homophobic bigot but the real problem is you for making him feel bad”) it’s also kind of patronizing in the self-defeating sense that it’s basically arguing that the people saying these dumb, shitty things are so developmentally stunted that they can’t figure out basic concepts like “don’t threaten people with rape” or “don’t accuse women of being fake geeks out to steal your precious bodily fluids.”
This isn’t to say that introspection and self-examination of assumptions and (yes, I know) privilege isn’t a learned skill, but at the same time a whole lot of this stuff? Is really basic stuff. It’s “Behaving Like a Respectable Human Being 101.” When you’re 12 years old and half-formed, it’s understandable that you might need patient education to help you become a full-fledged person who knows well enough not to do dumb, hurtful things. When you’re 30 years old? Then it’s on you.
So which is it, people going to bat for the sexists and misogynists? Are these people so stunted that even basic social aptitude is beyond them, or do they understand that what they’re doing is shitty but they’re doing it on purpose anyway?
John and Kai = both right on the mark.
Thanks for a concrete example. On the one hand, this makes all the defensiveness in the previous post unnecessary, because no one here was saying stuff like that (at least, not as far as we know). On the other hand, though, people who were saying that MGK was tarring people with too broad a brush or whatever should be clear that that’s the kind of thing they’re defending.
As one of the women who is the cancer that is destroying comics, I just want to say I can’t even take comments like this for serious anymore. I should, but I can’t. My give-a-fuck meter got busted ages ago.
I’ll just keep on doing what I’m doing. Which I guess is…metastasizing? Laughing at their “resistance”, the moral equivalent of a homeopathic treatment? Whatever.
Another adavantage of this approach is that it can improve things. If people keep finding themselves marginalized for being toxic asshats, some of them are going to stop acting like it, because they want to be involved in the discussion. They’ll resent the hell out of it, but if there aren’t many spaces left where their behavior is acceptable, they’ll stop doing it habitually. (Or they’ll congregate in those spaces, and everybody else will get to avoid them.)
And for a lot of people, these things feed off social reinforcement; it’s a lot harder to do it if it feels like you’re the only one who thinks that way. If they don’t believe that the lurkers will support them in email, they won’t bother.
It’s similar to what’s started happening with racism. Some people got a clue and started trying to recognize that people of all races are human beings just like them. Other people got no clue but at least learned to shut up when the people around them stopped tolerating their foul bullshit.
At some point we have to give misogynists the same treatment Donald Sterling’s been getting.
With a comment like that, all I could reasonably reply with is:
Salt-Water Fish Extinction Seen By 2048
Anything is possible, if we really work at it.
Anyone wondering if maybe the dirt that sent that letter to Asselin was trolling or like one of a really small group of extremists needs to check out wehuntedthemammoth.com. These people have a whole cult thing going on.
Nice to see “kindly fuck off” caught on with you, John. It’s not like I invented the phrase, but still.
On the subject of shitty nerds behaving shittily, in the wake of the Asselin debacle CBR has apparently gone and instituted a zero-tolerance policy on their forums now with regards to phobic behavior, threats, and all that good stuff. So that’s decent of them.
Naturally there’s a loud minority of people whining and bitching (toes firmly behind the line) that this will “stifle discussion,” but John’s little sample up there shows the level of discourse that’s at stake here, so nothing of value seems in danger of being lost. Hopefully the mods there don’t get burned out…I’ve helped moderate a nerd-centric forum before and you never run out of people willing to plant their flag on the hill of behaving like an enormous asshole.
“How many generations until this shit dies out?”
Sorry Nik… that asshole has six kids and a wife with black eyes.
This shit is outbreeding us and will eventually win through sheer numbers.
@RAC:
“Kindly fuck off” is a catchy phrase! Let’s be clear that we won’t stand for poor behaviour.
Along similar lines:
Although people might be able to have sympathy for Rob Ford’s addiction issues, a lot of people are upset with his constant misogyny, homophobia and racism. You can’t let someone get away with such awful behaviour, especially when he’s in a position of power.
Beautifully said, sir. And thank you.
It also sums up the reasoning behind these attacks and how people deal with them. The asshats are counting on most people to treat them politely and reasonably…because that is what most people do. Thus, they can continue to get away with their abhorent behavior, and giggle to themselves. But if people treat them harshly…well, it’s not quite as much fun, it is?
Agree with the sentiment. I’m just not that optimist about us being louder. I mean, most of us aren’t willing to stoop to their level.
I hope I’mm wrong, though.
This shit is outbreeding us and will eventually win through sheer numbers.
1. Are they? Have you got any actual evidence of this?
2. Even if there are a large number of hateful assholes out there with large families, that doesn’t mean that all their children will continue to be assholes.
Fundamentalist Christianity (where a lot of this kind of attitude stems from) has been seeing generations of kids leaving either religion as a whole, Christianity or at least their bigoted version of Christianity for a couple decades now, and their only response has been to shout louder about the things that are driving those kids away. (See, for example: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/06/19/the-nph-and-why-evangelical-millennials-cant-trust-their-elders/). The bigots sounds louder because the noise they make is so unpleasant, but they’re still losing.
It also sums up the reasoning behind these attacks and how people deal with them. The asshats are counting on most people to treat them politely and reasonably…because that is what most people do. Thus, they can continue to get away with their abhorent behavior, and giggle to themselves. But if people treat them harshly…well, it’s not quite as much fun, it is?
They’ll then be the first people to turn around and try to shame you for attacking them and being so “negative” and try to play the martyr.
The choice in this situation is always, do we as a fan community find it more important to appease the abusers, or make our community more safe for their victims?
If we keep being patient and understanding with harassers and abusers, that sends the message that they’re more important than the people they abuse. It doesn’t get them to change either if their bad behaviour is never punished.
RAC is right. I know from personal experience that not only is that true, but if they know a lot about superhero comics they might get people defending them just because they’re the resident experts on Kilowog or the West Coast Avengers or whatever.
Some comic geeks sincerely believe that if you have read a lot of comics and know a ton of useless superhero trivia, then you shouldn’t have to behave like a grown up on the Internet if you don’t feel like it, and that anybody who complains about their awful behavior is in the wrong.
“Well yeah, he’s a racist douchebag who once made Gail Simone cry. But he owns every single issue of every Defenders run. And his expertise on Nighthawk is beyond reproach. Can’t you just stop provoking him by pointing out that he’s being a creep?”
Sounds like PAD won’t be allowed to post on CBR anymore then (and thank god for that).
Eh, I’m gonna be real here. It’s probably going to take way more than telling the nerd Taliban to fuck off. These people are fanatics that have nothing other than their fandom. They also congregate in 4chan and other such places, where unfortunately more and more young people are going everyday to hear their gospel. MGK, John, they don’t give three shits whether you want them to read you or not. Hell, some of the crazier ones are probably going to start reading you out of spite.
What it’s probably going to take is women geeks and sympathizers willing to hit these creeps as hard as they ate hitting them. Digging in is a good start, but there needs to be far more than just passive resistance. Are they trying to break into your bank account? Find them and break into theirs. Don’t want to do that? Find them, drag them out into the sunlight, and make sure criminal charges are pressed against them.. I’m not going to say its going to be easy, but it can be done, and it’s has been done. Look up what happened to Violentacrez and the other creeps on reddit a few weeks back. Some of these shitbirds will keep doing what their doing unless they experience real consequences for their actions, and if you are waiting for the to die out or go away you are going to be waiting a long time. They have already overrun several communities, and they will take more if given the chance.
I think there’s a middle ground between “we just have to be nicer to them and explain things clearly” and “this is war”. I agree that the worst transgressors should be dealt with, and especially that whoever hacked Janelle Asselin’s bank account should be going to jail now. But I also think it’s important to keep reactions legal, because like I said, these shits are going to try as hard as humanly possible to martyr themselves and if one side is doing reprehensible extralegal things and one isn’t, that gets more difficult.
Honestly, it’s going to be an uphill fight, and not one that can be technically “won.” There are still assholes out there fighting the 1960s culture wars- fuck, there are still assholes fighting the American Civil War -and whenever some other group finds them convenient, they’re going to give them a comfy home to spew whatever dumb shit they like with as much impunity as they can provide.
Which doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fight them. In fact it means the opposite. I don’t honestly believe society can be fully cleansed of stupid- but that makes it even more important to make all the places that we can safe.
The internet is like continually hosing down the Springfield Tire Fire to keep the remaining homes livable.
It’s funny that Corrin Radd mentions CBR. Apparently the verbal abuse against one of their female mods got so bad this week that they opted for a Scorched Earth approach to their forums and started over. I’m not saying I agree with the decision (it seems a massive overreaction when they could have just banned the offending parties) but it doesn’t change that a group of hostile fans ruined an entire community.
Haha, this reminds me. Waaaaay back when I was a clueless teenager, I wanted to study psychology, and become a therapist-councellor-something, and help neonazis rehabilitate. For some reason, I just really really wanted to “make the world a better place” by “helping” and “curing” bad people.
10+ years later, I have zero patience for idiots of any calibre. My time and energy are limited and valuable, and I’m sure as hell not going to spend it on scum that has little to no respect for me and my friends. If I want to “make the world a better place”, I do it by empowering/supporting/defending victims/survivors, not by wasting time on trying to change idiots.
@Archie 5: I used to be much more like that — until I saw, and felt personally, the toll it takes on you.
The lessons of any movement for social change, online or “real-world” is the need for community. Vigilante behavior — which is what you’re advocating — is the privilege of those in a position of relative power. Those who can afford the tools to inflict such damage and to deal with the consequences, from simply dealing with the police forward. Even getting criminal charges against them is a matter of some time and effort.
There’s a reason marginalized groups act as a group. There’s a reason their leverage comes oftentimes from turning to the media. There are reasons why protests, boycotts, and cultural pressure are used by those groups, when they can.
Beating up on the “bad guys” is an awesome fantasy. And that, in 90%+ of the cases out there, is exactly what it is — a wonderful thought in between the actual hard work of moving the scales of social justice. Advocating otherwise is, honestly, not helpful to any cause MGK and John are speaking on.
@Beacon: It’s not an over-reaction when the CBR forums have been horrific for for years along those exact lines. This is very much a straw/camel’s back situation, not some one-off.
I think it’s important to make a distinction between public and private fora here. We all have people in our lives with political opinions we find problematic – frequently they’re family. We all get to decide for ourselves where we draw the line on who we spend time with. But if we do have a personal relationship with these people, we have a reasonable chance of swaying them at least slightly in our direction (in some cases, just by visibly existing as a person who’s not like them). They see us as real people, and we in turn know enough about their specific context to tailor any arguments we make so they might actually be listened to.
Random blog commenters do not have this kind of personal relationship with you. Whether random blog commenters see you as a human or not is a bit of a coin toss. And furthermore, our interaction with blog commenters is public (increasing their ego investment in sticking to their guns) and can have the knock-on effect of normalising their views for the reader.
Yeah, you guys are right. I apologize for how extreme my statements were. Honestly once I calmed down I was a little embarrassed about my previous post. I agree that any response should stay legal, and I should not have advocated criminal behavior. Its just gotten so frustrating seeing how toxic a lot of communities have gotten, and honestly as long as the rules in certain communities such as cbr are properly enforced, that should be enough.
MGK, John, I would personally like to apologize for the statement I made above. You guys are doing the right thing and honestly I was being a bit of a blowhard. I let these jerks get to me for a second, when what I really should be doing is not giving them the time of day.
Y’know what works? Not treating discussions as fights. If one side brings the vitriol of a fight to a discussion, I try to bring it to a more even keel by saying “Hey, we’re just jawing here, no one’s insulting your mama.”
Also? Yeah, some folks are going to be assholes for the sake of being assholes, and/or because they can’t hang in civil conversation. These people are better left ignored, IMO, their poisonous crap disregarded as an attempt to shock and inflame and nothing more. Yeah, the internet gives everyone a voice, but we don’t need to respond to it in all cases.
“To be honest, I can’t even be angry at such comments. All that’s left to me is abject confusion. The sheer level of… utter delusion that is evident from that writing is something I completely cannot comprehend.
Maybe I’m just too much of a modern 21st century male but I flat out cannot understand the basic premise of thinking of women like this.
How many generations until this shit dies out?”
I’m with you. Personally I strive to live my life as if things like “identity politics” aren’t necessary. I’m meat. You’re meat. We’re all meat. I’d rather base my assessment of someone based on what they do, and not allow my perception to be colored by superfluous crap.
As for all of it “dying out,” I think that it’ll come in degrees. I know that fewer people by the year give a shit about gay marriage in this country (in the sense that they think “God, just let them get married – who cares!?”). Sexism and racism are tougher, IMO. The former is difficult because it is an ongoing trend present in multiple societies and nations, ranging from pay discrepancy to “we will stone you to death for having a vagina and doing X.”
Racism is similarly tricky, as there will always be a segment of the population that believes that “black = bad because it isn’t white, which is the color of righteousness” or some such bullshit. That said, I think that the mechanisms constructed to systematize racism are dying out.
In the end, I think that the continued proliferation of information will win out.
“The asshats are counting on most people to treat them politely and reasonably…because that is what most people do.”
I disagree: I think that they’re trolls just looking to get a reaction, and that their missives are 90% pro-wrestling-style bluster designed to stir the pot and give them something to do with their otherwise wastes of lives.
Matt said: “Y’know what works? Not treating discussions as fights. If one side brings the vitriol of a fight to a discussion, I try to bring it to a more even keel by saying “Hey, we’re just jawing here, no one’s insulting your mama.”
Also? Yeah, some folks are going to be assholes for the sake of being assholes, and/or because they can’t hang in civil conversation. These people are better left ignored, IMO, their poisonous crap disregarded as an attempt to shock and inflame and nothing more. Yeah, the internet gives everyone a voice, but we don’t need to respond to it in all cases.”
I agree that the first option works if it’s a relatively trivial thing; if a discussion about whether the Winter Soldier is Penance with a cyborg arm is getting heated, it can be helpful to remind everyone that it’s just a comic book and everyone should just chill. But as noted, when someone is at the point that they’re posting a screed like the one I quoted, they’re not “heated”. The discussion is not what’s upsetting them. What’s upsetting them is that a woman is talking, and you’re not going to be able to get them to “just chill” on that.
And as for the second one…no. Sorry, but no. It has been proven, with science, that “don’t feed the trolls” is counter-productive. There are two types of reactions to ignoring a troll; either they assume that nobody’s sticking up for the other side because everyone agrees with them, or they get upset over being ignored and go even further in their attempt to get a reaction. Either way, ignoring trolls makes them worse. What you need to do is give them an immediate and united response, letting them know that they are isolated, that their opinions are fringe and unwelcome, and that their abuse will not be tolerated. It really is the only way to get them to stop trolling.
“There are two types of reactions to ignoring a troll; either they assume that nobody’s sticking up for the other side because everyone agrees with them”
Okay, I guess I don’t see the harm in this one?
EXAMPLE: There are folks in my country who overlook the actual (data-driven) failings of our President in favor of viewing him as the literal Antichrist. These people believe that Barack Obama was literally crafted by Satan and deposited on Earth to obliterate ‘Murica.
If these people take non-engagement as tacit agreement, I don’t see what that practically does aside from wrap them further in their stupid delusion (which, if we’re being honest, they’re not going to back out of anyway). They’re not even raging against the tide, they’re having a conversation with dead air.
“or they get upset over being ignored and go even further in their attempt to get a reaction”
At which point I’ve found it works to say “So you’re not making a point, you’re an idiot trying to be provocative because you’re just not that interesting of an individual and, apparently, would like to be. Want to not be an idiot? Don’t be an idiot.”
Granted, I generally surf forums that encourage and value objective analysis, so there’s usually a pile-on of sentiments like mine.
“Either way, ignoring trolls makes them worse. What you need to do is give them an immediate and united response, letting them know that they are isolated, that their opinions are fringe and unwelcome, and that their abuse will not be tolerated. It really is the only way to get them to stop trolling.”
Yeah, I guess that works. My issue with it is that it often comes across as an elitist thing rather than a “this is stupid and won’t be tolerated” thing. On the macroscale, approaching the issue from the perspective of “I believe this and am better than you because of it” leads to crusades, flame wars, and/or deliberate attempts to harm.
I’ve found that a great way to go (granted, without the usual breast-swelling feeling that comes from dishing out a good verbal drubbing) is for a forum monitor to say “Yeah, this shit won’t be tolerated. Don’t like it? There’s the door. Can’t accept it? Cool, IP ban for you, thanks for playing.”
@Matt: Because they don’t take non-argument as tactit agreement, they take it as tacit encouragement. If Person A makes a post in a forum saying that women can never be real comic book fans, and everybody ignores him because “don’t feed the trolls”, then the next time a woman posts about comics he will feel emboldened to say, “Shut up, you’re not wanted here,” because he ‘knows’ everyone agrees with him.
It’s better to nip that in the bud by responding right at the start with, “If you think women can’t be comics fans, you’re in the wrong place.” Silence can embolden trolls by making them believe that nobody will stand up for their victims.
Alright, I can see that.
Frankly, I’ve never personally (as in “in person”) seen that position expressed. It’s frankly baffling to me that it even exists.
Honestly, I think that manchildren are the problem. They ruin everything.
@Woodrow “asim” Jarvis Hill:
I freely admit that I haven’t been all that active with the overall CBR community in recent years. Mostly I’ve stuck to a handful of threads that interest me. We I was posting there more regularly I did notice the moderators tend to feed the trolls the attention they craved rather than actually exercising them but I’d never realized their troublemakers had achieved Newsarama levels of nastiness.
I agree that straight silence is a bad long-term plan for trolls, but is that what “don’t feed the trolls” has to mean? Seems to me it’s helpful to have a flat “That is unacceptable behavior” (or stronger language as merited) and then refuse to have any further engagement – and “don’t feed the trolls” has been a mental mantra that has saved me many a pointless flamewar while waiting for a moderator to see the issue.
“Seems to me it’s helpful to have a flat “That is unacceptable behavior” (or stronger language as merited) and then refuse to have any further engagement”
That’s basically where I’m at. It seems to me that a lot of rebukes tend to be of the “white knight” variety, meaning they’re simultaneous attacks and proclamations of “look at what a great person I am.”
I’d rather not give some fuckhead with verbal/mental diarrhea the time of day, let alone the idea that I use their pathetic ass as some kind of model to prove that I’m a better overall person. Surmounting a fuckhead in terms of tact and decency isn’t all that high of a hurdle, y’know?
@Matt and Kirala,
“Don’t feed the trolls” is a good idea when the problem is just a heated discussion. Once we’re at the “rape/othe kind of violence threats, bank hacking, effectivelly trying to shout ou a member of your community” level, there’s no amount of ignoring that’s going to bring the civility back to the discussion.
“That’s the kind of battle you face with people like me. We won’t quit. We won’t stop attacking. We won’t give up. Ever.”
See: The Thousand-Year Reich.
Also: Segregation forever.
Not that this makes them any easier to deal with in the short term.
The amazing thing about that frenetic screed is that the imbecile who spewed it was afraid to actually type the word “fuck”.
“I’m with you. Personally I strive to live my life as if things like “identity politics” aren’t necessary. ”
And I bet you’re a straight white man, which means you can go on living as if such things aren’t necessary. Great for you. But of other people, “identity politics” are a fact of life.
“And I bet you’re a straight white man, which means you can go on living as if such things aren’t necessary. Great for you. But of other people, ‘identity politics’ are a fact of life.”
I understand that. I’m trying to do my part by judging people on the merits of their individual behavior(s) rather than by skin color, socioeconomic background, etc.