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mygif

I’m way behind on watching GoT, but man, I’m really looking forward to Iwan Rheon as Ramsay Sn-Bolton.

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That last quote is probably a good one for GoT as a whole.

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MurnShaw said on June 12th, 2013 at 11:40 am

Can a brain-washed former slave who unflinchingly killed his puppy and a random woman’s baby be categorized as Lawful Good? I would think the best he could place is True Neutral.

I really dislike how they are portraying Stannis in the TV series. His novel counterpart would be great for Lawful Good.

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mygif

@MurnShaw:

That gets into the question of whether Alignment is something that can change. I don’t think he was a Lawful Good person when he did those deeds – but with Daenarys having freed him and given him his choice of life to live, he now chooses the Lawful Good path of his own volition.

I think Stannis, books or show, is about a pure an incarnation of Lawful Neutral as any character you will ever find.

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mygif

Yeah, what MurnShaw said. Lawful Good doesn’t mesh with “I was just following orders.”

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mygif

@MurnShaw/Marc: Does it follow with “I was fucking 10″?

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Christian Williams said on June 12th, 2013 at 12:39 pm

@MurnShaw

I don’t think Book Stannis qualifies as LG.

Book Stannis:
a) Condones the murdering of his brother via occult arts.
b) Condones the burning of people alive as sacrifices to advance his agenda.
c) Turns down various ways to make peace, because they all involve him getting less than what he ‘deserves’.

Stannis is about the strict adherence to the rules of succession, regardless of the cost in blood or gold. That’s Lawful Neutral for ya… maybe even Lawful Evil.

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mygif

I haven’t seen Season 3 yet… does Catelyn really say that? And is it about Jon?

Because that’s a significant departure from the books, where Catelyn goes to her grave with her irrational hatred and mistrust of Jon Snow firmly intact. Which didn’t speak well of her as a person, mind you, but was something I loved about her as a character.

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mygif

Murc, yeah she says it, but it isn’t a ‘oh now I see the error of my ways’ moment. She still doesn’t like him, she just blames herself for what (she thinks) stemmed from her hatred.

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mygif

Did Catelyn say anything like that in the books? I just finished “A Storm of Swords” and I don’t recall seeing that. The last thing I remembered of her mentioning Jon before the Red Wedding was when she was trying to convince Robb not to make Jon lord of Winterfell because he might betray them. Her hatred seemed to be flourishing with little self-reflection in that moment.

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magnuskn said on June 12th, 2013 at 4:56 pm

That’s a pretty underhanded way to call series-Shae crazy, MGK. :p Probably for refusing that sweet deal Varys as offering her, so I totally understand.

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mygif

@Murc: Catelyn’s distrust of Jon is not really irrational, in context. One of the biggest problems she has with him, and one the TV show completely omitted, is the potential threat that a favoured illegitimate child poses to her own children’s inheritance (particularly since Jon looks like a Stark, whereas Robb and the other kids apart from Arya look Tully).

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pospysyl said on June 12th, 2013 at 6:29 pm

I would swap Catelyn and Melisandre. Catelyn is directly aligned with royalty and honor and all that jazz. Catelyn has her religious code, but it’s too foreign and independent to really be considered law to me. She aligns with pretty much any interest, which fits true neutral.

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mygif

Is Jon described as looking like a Stark? Haven’t read the books since the last one came out, but I thought there were hints that Jon was one of Robert Baratheon’s by-blows, not Ned’s.

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mygif

There’s no indication that he’s Robert’s son. The most common interpretation is that he’s Rhaegar and Lyanna’s, not Ned’s, but he looks like a Stark. That’s one of the things he and Arya have in common.

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mygif

So Ramsay is being played by George RR Martin, clearly.

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DistantFred said on June 12th, 2013 at 9:37 pm

Joe- No, Jon Snow is not one of Robert’s. All of Robert’s numerous bastards look almost identical to him in a way that was so apparent that it made it impossible to deny that Joffrey, Tomnen and Myrcella weren’t related to him. Like, Jon Arryn went through dozens of the things, including four that show up in the narrative, and all of them looked like Robert before he turned into a drunk fatass.

Jon IS however, all but explicitly shown to be Lyanna’s son through flashbacks that Ned has before he dies, although there are a bunch of false leads planted by characters who don’t actually know his parentage, who guess at who Ned may have slept with.

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mygif

@LurkerWithout: Having an explanation for the babymurder doesn’t make the Unsullied moral paragons.

What exactly has Grey Worm done in the show that would mark him as a good person? I think his inclusion here says something really troubling about the way we assign moral standing. Yes, he suffered horribly in the past, and he’s free now – but suffering doesn’t automatically make you a better person, and all he’s done with his freedom is trade one master for another.

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mygif

Sam is citing a literalist interpretation of the crow’s oath to justify his actions. If that doesn’t constitute lawful good, then I’ve been playing paladins wrong for all these years.

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mygif

Sam is citing a literalist interpretation of the crow’s oath to justify his actions. If that doesn’t constitute lawful good, then I’ve been playing paladins wrong for all these years.

It depends. The quote is a very strong re-interpretation of the crow’s oath. For millenia, the Watch has understood the oath as a commitment to safeguard the wall against the wildings. This has been an understanding shared by the officers and the men alike. Almost every crow would read Sam’s quote as sophistry to defend blatant oath-breaking.

In-universe, Sam is likely right in his interpretation. It is, by Book 5, clear that the Wall was built to keep the Others out. It is also clear that it is the Others, not the wildings, that are the real threat to the “realms of men”. These facts are, however, clear only to the reader. The average member of the Watch does not have all the facts to support such stark re-interpretation (pun intended).

If your definition of “lawful good” means “morally good, follows the written law to the letter”, Sam is “lawful”. However, if it means “morally good, follows the written, customary and oral law according to his conscience”, then Sam is definitely chaotic. In an orderly world, it is for the commander of the Watch to establish such strong re-interpretations of the basic principles of the organisation, not for rank-and-file members. Sam knows, very definitely, that his interpretation of the oath is criminally wrong in the eyes of his colleagues.

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mygif

Roose Bolton is LE? The man broke three of the most important legal principles (such as they are) in Westeros; you don’t plot against your liege lord, you don’t fuck with guest right, and you don’t murder your own king. The elder Bolton is Neutral Evil through and through.

I agree with others regarding Grey Worm as well, the guy simply hasn’t demonstrated any kind of agency whatsoever other than choosing to follow a character who the audience finds sympathetic. Unless the argument goes that faithfully following the orders of a Neutral Good character (which is where I’d put Dany) makes one Lawful Good by definition, but that strikes me as shaky to say the least.

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Wolfthomas said on June 13th, 2013 at 7:17 am

Roose works if you consider Law = Order, stability, ect

I’ve always thought of Roose as being lawful evil, like a weird mirror of Tywin Lannister. Except where Tywin uses evil to create law/order/legacy, Roose strives to create order so he can be evil and terrorize the populace in peace.

“A quite land, a quiet people”

Technically Roose wasn’t Robb’s host and he was supporting the King of the Iron Throne over his own traitorous liege.

I think it’s a perfect transition. Ramsay did bad things for kicks (chaos), Walder for pretty revenge (neutral) and finally Roose to be Warden of then North and end the war (lawful).

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mygif

As Tywin Lannister would point out if he were here, lowborn boys say “M’lady”, not “My lady”.

Personally I’d have put Grey Worm down as Lawful Neutral, if anything; he hasn’t shown much sign of an evolved morality at this stage, just obedience to his code and a willingness to follow somebody who has done him a huge favour.

And Roose Bolton – absolutely Lawful Evil. He’ll work within the system whenever it suits his purpose, but bend the rules to his advantage. Remember, he wasn’t hosting the Red Wedding; he didn’t violate any guest right.

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mygif

I feel like the ones that fit most strongly in their categories are the evil ones and Samwell.

I think you could move Melisandre to True Neutral. Her quote is about as “balanced” as it gets.

At least to this point, Grey Worm strikes me as more Lawful Neutral.

Take out Shae and put in Daario Naharis as Chaotic Neutral. “I’m the simplest man you’ll ever meet. I only do what I want to do.”

I’m not sure who I would put in the Lawful Good and Chaotic Good slots (without reusing characters who were on the previous charts). I could see moving Sam to Lawful Good, though. Maybe Beric or Thoros for Chaotic Good.

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mygif

Any of the Starks apart from Arya would work as Lawful Good (apart from perhaps the show’s version of Robb, who they moved more toward Neutral Good by making him a much more conscious oathbreaker). Davos would be another.

Roose is definitely Lawful Evil. You can see that very clearly in his arguments with Ramsay in the fifth book. He believes in a placid, ordered society, kept in place with cruelty, but quietly. Whereas Ramsay is the “shoot a man in Reno just to watch him die” type.

True Neutral should just be Hodor.

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ScienceGiant said on June 13th, 2013 at 12:37 pm

Submitted for your approval as the defination of Chaotic Neutral: Littefinger’s speech about “The Climb”. CHAOS ISN’T A PIT. CHAOS IS A LADDER. MANY WHO TRY TO CLIMB IT FAIL AND NEVER GET TO TRY AGAIN. THE FALL BREAKS THEM. AND SOME ARE GIVEN A CHANCE TO CLIMB, THEY CLING TO THE REALM OR THE GODS OR LOVE. ONLY THE LADDER IS REAL. THE CLIMB IS ALL THERE IS.

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mygif

@Wolfthomas

Fair point RE guest right, Roose didn’t break a major law, he simply willingly conspired to allow someone else to do it.

Your other points don’t strike me as persuasive. Bolton swore an oath to the Starks as liege lords and to Robb as the King in the North. The fact that the Boltons had sworn allegiance to the Iron Throne as well is a reason for the former to become problematic and the latter to have been undesireable. To swear anyway and then willingly forsake that oath in the most murderous way possible does not become the act of a lawful character simply because one can put together a case that Bolton opposing Robb in itself might be lawful. Bigamy is illegal, but that doesn’t make it a lawful choice to marry two people and then kill one of them.

As regards the stability angle, I’d argue you’re relying on facts not in evidence. I’ve seen nothing in the show (and remember nothing in the books, though it’s been a little while since I read them) that suggests Bolton wants order. He wants control of the North, which he now has through an alliance with the Lannisters, but ending a war in order to gain what you want isn’t the same thing as wanting to end a war. It’s also worth noting that if a desire to be ruler and maximise one’s power by ruling a peaceful land constitutes lawful behaviour, then even Joffrey might qualify as Lawful Evil. Temperament aside, the most obvious difference between their power-related desires is that Bolton has already crushed his enemies, and Joffrey hasn’t.

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mygif

Man, GoT is tough to do alignment-wise, as each character’s motivation is usually pretty convoluted. I would put Davos Seaworth in at Lawful Good over Grey Worm, though.

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mygif

Davos has already had the LG position for the last season. I think that is why some of these spots are getting trickier, since MGK is avoiding any repetition.

Previous seasons:
Season 2
Season 1

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mygif

Although Ramsay’s a perfect fit, I would have loved to have seen Joffrey in the “Chaotic Evil” slot for a third time, just for consistency’s sake.

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Wolfthomas said on June 14th, 2013 at 4:49 am

I think Lawful Good could be Robb (he might be NG) or the Old Bear Jeor Mormont. Refusing to break guest right at Craster’s even though he’s a monster and they’re starving.

Sam works for NG.

I think Beric could be chaotic good (but not Thoros who follows the Red God too tightly). Also Mance Rayder could have been Chaotic Good if we saw enough of him. He is trying to save all the Wildlings.

Barristan Selmy is definitely Lawful Neutral. The guy loves following orders, he had to be kicked off Joffrey’s kingsguard before he found Daenarys.

Cat is a good true neutral. The Hound might work here too, he’s pretty much running on instinct this season.

Agreed with the poster that said Daario is CN.

LE, NE, and CE are perfect.

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mygif

Disco Stu, I even know what line would be best to go with it. “Everyone is mine to torment.”

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any moose said on June 16th, 2013 at 9:07 pm

Robb is neutral stupid, he’s all about making oaths and then breaking them cause his dick says so. Ned at least stuck to his (stupid) principles.

Chaotic neutral should be Littlefinger, in terms of you know, him making the entire huge speech about how much he loves the shit out of chaos.

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any moose said on June 16th, 2013 at 9:09 pm

CHAOS IS A LADDER, CHAOS IS A CLIMB, CHAOS IS MY GIRLFRIEND AND SHES TOTALLY WAY HOTTER THAN CATE TULLY SO THERE

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mygif

Seriously, Sam is more Lawful Good – in spirit and action – than Grey Worm, who is lawful but bound to the will of his mistress (even in freedom).
The Boy’s quote as CE is so meta it broke the fifth wall.

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mygif

and now that Season Four’s started with new characters, we’re gonna need to see the alignment chart that squarely puts Oberyn in the Chaotic OMFG He Sexy square.

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