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Gustopher said on September 14th, 2009 at 11:25 am

Where is She-Hulk when you need her?

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Sofa King said on September 14th, 2009 at 11:56 am

A very interesting puzzle. I’ll be following to see what you find out.
Also:
Eat Karma, Chameleon!

I know, I’m a bad person.

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John said on September 14th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

I know this misses the point, but I’m sure 616 New York has some sort of Superhuman/Mutant Jurisprudence that has shapeshifters covered.

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Gloria said on September 14th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

Re: the twin case:

“The absence of a cowboy tattoo on his buttocks led the woman to realize that she was with Jared, not Joseph, according to the affidavit.”

This is exactly what Athena should have done. Could have avoided some serious trauma.

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Zifnab said on September 14th, 2009 at 2:09 pm

I think the whole argument is freak’n silly. Even conceding it is “rape” in whatever sense, we portray theft and murder and gratuitous amounts of nudity in comic books. And we hand race relations and drug use/abuse and general misogyny. When did rape become a sacred cow?

And then there’s the whole storytelling aspect. Do they plan to set up “Child of Spider Man” in the future and plan on confusing the parentage? Is Dimitri falling in love with Michelle and playing out an Uther Pendragon style romance? Who knows, who cares? Because ZOMG rape!

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Adela said on September 14th, 2009 at 3:06 pm

And Zifnab’s derailment attempt gives me another Bingo square.

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Randy B. said on September 14th, 2009 at 4:55 pm

Io9 did an article on this earlier today, with quotes from the writer in question etc. Now they’re saying in issue 605 it’ll be “revealed” that they didn’t actually have sex, just made out. It’s magic- they don’t have to explain it.

http://io9.com/5358396/spider+mans-villains-not-rapists-says-creator

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DistantFred said on September 14th, 2009 at 6:14 pm

Randy- Well that’s good. It isn’t rape.

Just Sexual Assault.

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Randy B. said on September 14th, 2009 at 7:36 pm

Agreed and either way it’s disturbing. I just loved that the (freelance) writer comes out defending it saying: “It technically wasn’t rape, it was consensual.” Then later “I don’t work or speak for Marvel-and by the way they didn’t actually have sex…they just made out. You’ll find that out in issue #605.” Riiiight.

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BringTheNoise said on September 14th, 2009 at 8:20 pm

I cannot find the citation to hand, but I’m fairly certain that rape by deception has been accepted as, well, actually rape in Scotland. I’ll get back to you on that one once I had a chance to rifle through the textbooks.

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sgt pepper said on September 14th, 2009 at 10:01 pm

Didn’t this also happen in Incognito recently, where the protagonist tricked the hot girl in the office into fucking him while he was dressed up as Santa at the xmas party?

Obviously, there’s a huge difference between what’s tasteful/tasteless in Incognito and Spider-Man, but still.

Two (borderline?)rape-by-deception cases in Marvel comics in the last few months.

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Gloria said on September 15th, 2009 at 10:18 am

Fred Van Lente: “My understanding of the definition of rape is that it requires force or the threat of force, so no.”

Oh, shit will rain down on this man.

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Randy B. said on September 15th, 2009 at 6:36 pm

@Gloria

Considering he later made it a point to let everyone know that he was a freelance writer and didn’t represent Marvel, and that in 605 it’ll show that they just “made out” I’m willing to bet it already has- at least from the folk at Marvel. It really shouldn’t have gotten past the editors in the first place. Regardless if they show later that sex didn’t happen, it sure as hell was suggestive that it had, and apparently the writer thought it did originally too. Either way, as has been said already, it’s still sexual assault.

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R-Tam said on September 15th, 2009 at 6:37 pm

So, under Lente’s definition, where does the date-rape-drug fit in? I mean, there’s no force involved, so hooray, he just definitioned the pain of millions of women out of existence. Yay!

I hope he does poverty next! *crosses fingers*

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q said on September 15th, 2009 at 10:26 pm

I think it relevant that over in The Incredible Hercules Herc just bedded the Queen of the Drow, who currently believes him to be Thor.

This is Hercules we’re talking about though, so he’s done much, much worse than that.

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John said on September 15th, 2009 at 11:45 pm

R-Tam, giving someone an unwanted drug would count as “force.” In fact, it would be battery, so that’s a bit of a non-starter.

I checked the statutes in my state and this situation wouldn’t obviously fit any of the criminal sexual offenses, exactly because use the term “force” in all the rape/sexual battery statutes. There’s no specific “rape by deception” statute. I didn’t read the case notes, so there may be something in case law that addresses this, but legally it’s not that cut and dried. Morally, it’s a pretty horrible plot device.

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Beacon said on September 17th, 2009 at 12:09 am

Where were all these people for the Starfox issues of She-Hulk?

I’m more bothered by the revelation that OMD apparently turns gay villains straight on top of breaking up marriages, rewriting history, bringing back the dead, and making Spider-Man dull.

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coren said on September 18th, 2009 at 3:12 am

Two things (probably more as I go)

First and foremost, Ben Reilly is brought up as an analogue to Chameleon’s superpowers – but Van Lente doesn’t like the shapeshifting ability and had Chameleon use a mask. Which is, I suppose, something that someone could actually do. I’ve no idea what difference that might or might not make.

Two, that issue is out. It renders the whole argument moot anyway, as they “swapped spit” or “made out” and nothing more.

Oh and there is a three, Randy: I doubt it – issue 605 was already in Diamond’s warehouse by the time the big to do came about, let alone Fred’s comments. Hell it was probably already past the printers before the general public saw the scene that got everyone in an uproar. The writer plotted the issue (and I believe wrote the scene) where it was revealed so to claim ignorance on his part hardly seems to fit the facts.

Oh and four, perhaps he was speaking from a legal standpoint – state law varies on what does and doesn’t constitute rape – it’s entirely possible Van Lente was informed about/researched a specific state law that requires force to be part of the equation. I don’t know, but to say that’s wholly inaccurate would require one to know dozens of different laws.

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seafire said on September 29th, 2009 at 6:40 pm

and this is why lawyers have such a bad name… I’m in the legal field, you think I am going to do a legal analysis of rape? give me a break, legally blacks weren’t fully human at one time in our history are you going to legally analyze that and make that ok as well? Pretty lame and an insult to lawyers at that man.

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Skemono said on September 30th, 2009 at 1:52 am

and this is why lawyers have such a bad name

Because they answer abstract legal questions?

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Denise Romano said on January 28th, 2010 at 2:19 am

Please see our ongoing discussion about the PUA industry’s negligence in teaching men the abusive concepts of ASD and LMR and how these can easily lead to sexual assault and rape.

Visit Lady Raine’s wordpress blog or my blog for more information.

Thanks
Denise

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