Lister Sage asks:
The Jason Todd post had me thinking: Does this DC Universe need a Punisher?
Not really. The DC Universe has had Punishers before: Mad Dog, the second Vigilante, the latest iteration of Manhunter to an extent, and you can even make a case for Tommy Monoghan. Almost universally they just don’t work in the long run (Chris Sims’ odd love for Mad Dog aside) unless the story is closed off (IE, the end of Hitman). Partially it’s because the idea of a Punisher in a universe with Superman in it is ludicrous. Partially it’s a matter of tone. And partially it’s because the Punisher concept is pretty wack to begin with unless you go the Garth Ennis route and decide on either dark comedy or ultradark violent noir, and neither of those modes can work longterm within the DC Universe, which has two settings: bright adventure and dark melodrama.
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i have nothing to say to this specifically, but you mentioning hitman made me remember that i wanted to say that i was rereading the legion reasons and on the last one, i saw that you had “president thomas lorenzo” being responsible for essentially saving humanity from extinction.
tommy lorenzo is what maggie’s kid in “hitman” was gonna be named. the one tommy and natt died saving.
you sentimental sonuvabitch, you.
Of course, another reason for not having a Punisher in DC is that Batman will run out of rogues really really quickly.
Batman = My Parents Are Dead!
Punisher = My Children Are Dead!
Spider-Man = My Uncle Is Dead!
Superman = The Kryptonians Are Dead And Earthlings Are Dying!
Doctor Doom = Unless I Interfere, The World Is Dead!
Reed Richards = Unless I Interfere, Ben’s Future Is Dead!
Cyclops = My Wife Is Dead Again! Oops, Maybe Not!
Wolverine = I Am Not Dead!
Deadpool = This Chair Is Dead!
Lobo = Everything Is Dead! What A Rush!
Mr Immortal = I Am Dead! Oh Wait, No I’m Not!
Thanos = I Am Dead And I’ve Never Been Happier!
Marvel Zombies = We Are Dead!
Blackest Night = We Are Also Dead!
Seriously, is there ANY superhero in the Big Two who has both parents alive?
Kitty Pryde?
Kitty Pryde’s parents have been dead for a while.
Seriously, is there ANY superhero in the Big Two who has both parents alive?
You obviously haven’t met Jaime Reyes’s parents. Shame on you, and go read Blue Beetle. If you have read Blue Beetle and merely forgot them, reread it.
I believe Speedball/Penance’s parents are also both alive.
“Seriously, is there ANY superhero in the Big Two who has both parents alive?”
There’s also the Beast, I think. In fact, there was an X-Man Unlimited issue where Dark Beast went around killing all the people from Beast’s past, but couldn’t bring himself to kill the parents. Speaking of mutants, are both Iceman’s parents still alive? I seem to remember a storyline right when I first started comics about Drake Sr finally coming around to accept that his son was a mutant.
yeah, Kitty’s dad died in Genosha. It was a plot point in Genosha. Jean Grey’s parents are supposed to still be around. Nightcrawler’s parents, Mystique and Azrael/Count Wagner are still alive. In fact, I imagine most of the X-men’s parents are still around, especially the younger ones, since the whole “Disapproving parent” aspect is too tempting for the X-writers, who are obviously pushing teh gay agenda.
In the delightful Marvel Adventures Avengers series, Luke Cage is often bossed around by his mom.
I think you mean Wild Dog, not Mad Dog.
I’m pretty sure Jean Grey’s parents are dead…the Shi’ar wiped out all/most of the Grey’s a while ago to get rid of people with a genetic predisposition to using the Phoenix Force.
I’d say one of the major contrasts between the DC Universe and the Marvel Universe are when they were created. The vast majority of the DC characters came into existence between the debut of Superman in 1938 and Kirby’s creation of the New Gods in 1969. There have been a few debuts since, but the basic dynamics have been in place for the last forty years.
Marvel had a creative period that was both more recent (starting in 1961) and briefer (ending with the debut of the New X-Men in 1976). Again, that is not to say that nothing has happened at Marvel in thirty years, just that the basic dynamics were in place by 1980 for what was to come.
As a result, the characters operate most easily when seen in the genres that were popular around the time of their creation. At DC, that is the screwball comedy, film noir, heroic war movies, Universal style horror and the like. At Marvel, you are talking about spy-fi, deconstructed westerns, historical epics, satire and the mid-’70s crime film from which the Punisher derives.
Frank Castle lives in the same world as Travis Bickle. DC is the world of L.B. Jeffries. There is darkness in the DCU, but it is containable by decent, well meaning people. In the Marvel U, the well-meaning people just might be the problem.
For example, in the world of DC Comics, the sexual revolution is Mrs. Robinson from “The Graduate”, James Bond from “From Russia, With Love” and Marilyn Monroe whereas in the world of Marvel Comics, it “Saturday Night Fever”, Jodie Foster in “Taxi Driver” and Jane Fonda in “Klute”. When done right, it is a totally different perspective.
Why Dean Should Edit The Big Two
“Wonder Woman, you’re trying to seduce me!”
I’m no Marvel authority, but have Speedball’s parents ever tried to show up and help him through his current problems? In the real world this would seem like an obvious plot development, but as shown above, few heroes have access to this kind of help.
From what I vaguely remember flipping thru Front Lines and the scans posted from it Robbie writes to his father asking him to distance himself from the whole thing. Still nothing ever being done with them by any of the Thunderbolts writers who’ve used Penance/Speedball is odd. I mean sure its for Conneticut, but a state DA and the 50 State Initiative seem to be concepts that would go together…
Oh and on topic, the Punisher seems less useful for an Earth that has the literal Wrath of God wandering around turning people to salt and stuff…
“Oh and on topic, the Punisher seems less useful for an Earth that has the literal Wrath of God wandering around turning people to salt and stuff…”
When have facts ever stopped a guy with a gun from getting his crazy on?
Screw Superman making the Punisher not fit, the Flash alone makes him kind of odd to fit in.
“Frank Castle is killing mobsters? We’ve got to sto-”
“Caught him!”
“…what?”
“I ran out, found the Punisher, beat him unconscious, caught all the bullets he shot at the gangsters, beat them up too, and hauled them all to the police station in 0.2 seconds.”
“Oh. Okay, back to dealing with Starro!”
Yeah, Marvel is a lot more down to Earth so Frank Castle is a better fit there.
Now if they’d just send the Sentry out into space or the Negative Zone where he belongs…
“Screw Superman making the Punisher not fit, the Flash alone makes him kind of odd to fit in.”
it’s bullshit, there are plenty of heroes in the marvel universe that makes the punisher not fit.
The concept of not fitting doesn’t really work in superhero comics anyway since many stories are based on things that obviously do not fit.
In other words, Hawkeye is on a team with Thor and IronMan in the marvel universe.
the FF makes the punisher not fit.
Thor makes the punisher not fit.
Doc strange makes the punisher not fit (if we assume Doc Strange comes into contact, notices Castle which is an easy assumption to make given that he ends up noticing all sorts of things you would think beneath the notice of a sorcerer supreme)
magneto makes the punisher not fit – hey, here’s a story. A mutant mobster gets killed by Frank Castle, now Magneto wants revenge.
a large number of mutants out there would have made the punisher not fit.
Really many of the highly trained killer storylines that both companies come up with to explain how non-powered humans can be a match for the super-powered ones don’t fit.
The Punisher? Maybe that’s what they’re doing with Hal Jordan over in “Cry for Justice.” Hm. Never thought of that. Yeah, Lobo = dark comedy Punisher.
@ZenRage:
Blackest Night = We belong dead ^_~
It’s not just the power levels that make the Punisher a bad fit for DC. It’s the fact that Marvel’s heroes tend to be more…I dunno…compromised? More willing to let a guy work, even if you think he’s wrong? I mean, even Captain America let the Punisher hang around for a while, knowing what he is and what he does. Can you see Superman doing that?
(Granted, Cap only lost his moral compass during Civil War because the writer didn’t want a clear-cut right and wrong in the conflict, and normally, whatever side Cap takes on a question, you know that is in fact the right side. Because he’s Captain America.)
A bunch of the Young Avengers’ parents are still kicking. Of course, the Runaways’ are dead, so it’s kind of a wash.
Frankin and Valeria’s parents are still alive.
@bryan-In a one on one match with most superhumans, the Punisher loses. I will readily admit that, and I won’t try to throw in some “if he plans for it, he can win” defense.
But looking at all of your examples, there are some very good reasons why most of them would not care about the Punisher unless he directly crosses their path. The FF is often dealing with galactic threats and exploration, while Thor can easily be called away to Asgard at any moment. Doctor Strange won’t really care what the Punisher is doing unless he starts murdering mages and creating some kind of mystical power vacuum on earth. The idea of the Punisher accidentally drawing Magneto’s ire by killing a mutant gangster is interesting, but that’s the only reason Magneto would get involved.
But that’s the difference in tone coming through. None of those people aren’t just sitting around, waiting for crimes to happen so they can catch the criminals. They either have specific interests, or some constant distraction that would keep them from patrolling for random crimes all that often. Whereas the Flash and Superman could do something like an x-ray vision or superspeed sweep of an entire city looking for the Punisher, and catch him in a minute or two-and there wouldn’t be a question of why they were doing that instead of handling some other issue that’s inherent to their characters. That is what they do.
None of these people are just sitting around, that is. I tried to go back and edit, and ended up making it less clear.
I loved Wild dog, wish they could of continued it. And there is hit man as well.
You can’t really single out the Punisher as an obvious victim of somebody like Superman, or the Flash. The same logic voids the need for Batman. How long would the Joker be out of the loony bin if somebody was smart enough to call Superman, ask him to glance out a window with Telescopic and X-ray vision and give them a street address? The Punisher would be just as safe as other superheroes villains are from these powerhouses. It’s all writer’s fiat anyway.
I’m glad people have been talking about Batman. The ol’ Caped Crusader doesn’t really fit into the DC Universe unless you’re willing to go with the idea that all the other superheroes take that stuff about staying out of “his city” seriously.
In the DCU, there are “slow” people who can move at, like, half the speed of light. Just about anyone with that type of power could clean up Gotham in about a week, leaving Batman with far fewer excuses to perch on gargoyles in the rain.
And I’ve always thought that “With time to prepare, Batman can beat anybody.” stuff was totally ridiculous. He’s just an obsessive guy who’s good at Japanese martial arts. That ain’t enough to protect you if Superman decides to do brain surgery on you with heat vision from three miles away.
And, yes, I know about the goofy “sci fi closet” full of gadgets he only uses when he’s trying to kill (excuse me, “neutralize”) other superheroes. That stuff still wouldn’t help if Superman, or the Flash or a competent Green Lantern was really trying to kill him.
It just makes me wonder why he doesn’t use those “protocols” on the bad guys instead of using special punches with silly names.