ALIGNMENT CHART! Game of Thrones, Season 2

I really want to have been in on the conversation where they first gave Joffrey that 25 degree crown tilt.

No one can wear a crown like that and not be an enormous snot. They’ve managed to communicate everything you ever need to know about Joffrey in the angle of some headwear.

It’s one of those fantastic little details that really takes the show to another level.

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@LarryBatman: For answers: http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2011/06/14/alignment-chart-game-of-thrones-season-one/

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I don’t know if I agree with some of these, which is rare for me.

Jaqen isn’t really random, which Chaotic Neutral implies. He’s got a very strict code to follow, and as we learn more about the Faceless men we learn that rules are very, very, important.

I think I’d also switch Davos and Brienne. Davos while loyal, has certainly been known to bend a law a time or two, and isn’t above challenging Stannis… he just concedes all arguments. Brienne is clearly all about the knightly virtues, and while we could question the ‘Good’ part given her willingness to execute people, the lawful isn’t really in any doubt.

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well, there was an almost-rape scene with osha. but in a more general way, i felt they subtly portrayed him in S1 as somebody who secretly enjoys violence a little too much. maybe thats just my subjective perception.

anyway, i dont really disagree with your read on theon. my point is, he may be motivated by insecurity and desperation rather than sadism or malice, but a man should be at least partly judged by his actions, and that puts him in the evil cathegory, for me. because, you know: burning kids to save face.

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Yeah, I can get where you’d see that from his portrayal in S1, but I saw his treatment of Osha as an extension of his treatment of Jon. In both cases he’s dealing with his massive insecurities by lording it over people who he believes he’s “better” than. It’s not the violence per se, but the power.

As you point out however I believe we’re splitting hairs, and I do agree, his part in the murder of the farm boys damned him. Although my personal view, is that his men suggested it and he simply went along out of fear. I can’t remember if the book makes it explicit one way or the other.

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Nice touch, keeping the emphasis on characters who came to prominence in Season 2.

Agree that Davos and Brienne probably ought to be switched. Stannis is the epitome of LN, and should appear there no matter what the ostensible theme of the chart. (Muppets, breakfast cereals, dog breeds, whatever. LN is Stannis’s by right, from this day until the last day.)

Also agree that Theon needs to be one row lower. When left to his own devices, he’s a bullying mildly evil fuck; and when he feels the need to impress his daddy, he becomes a TOTALLY evil fuck. Given his complete lack of moral compass, he’s a good candidate for CE. Not as good as Joff, perhaps, but none of the other eight slots have carry-overs from S1.

Agree that Jaqen has too much of a code to fit comfortably in CN; feels more like a true neutral to me. So who would be a better fit for CN? The Hound, for reveling in slaughter before leaving Joff’s employ at the worst possible moment? Zero Zone Ducksauce for being a lying bag of broke, dragon-stealing lies?

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The only thing with Jaqen is we know he’s a Faceless man, and from what we see in the books there are significant rules to being one, and violation of those rules is a bad thing (quit playing with that sword kid, or you’ll go blind).

I think in arguing you’ve proved my point. Brienne is willing to do what she things is right, even if it means she has to shift her immediate loyalties (just look at how many times she sticks her head into a noose in her quest for Sansa).

For Davos, the fact that he’ll follow Stannis to the death, despite his misgivings, despite the shadow baby, and despite pretty much everything is more my impression of LN. Loyal to the death, and to hell with the niceties.

But I can see your argument.

For Jaime as CN I could see it with one of his ‘I’m no good at being a prisoner’ quotes. But I do like featuring all new characters too. Might have been able to make a case for Meli ‘For the night is dark and full of terrors’ somewhere in there too, but that depends on just whose side you think Rhyllor is on.

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Man, somebody’s got to replace Joffrey in the Chaotic Evil slot for some future season, but who? May it’ll just be a picture of a White Walker with the caption *Insert sound of crackling ice here*

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Yeah, I agree with Magnus.

“So many vows… they make you swear and swear… No matter what you do, you’re forsaking one vow or the other.”

You have to cut out some of the meat of it, but it’s a perfect justification of a chaotic alignment.

Good chart, though. I’d move Jacen over to True Neutral: I agree that he’s not Lawful, because Lawful implies less having a code and more acting within society’s laws. He’s certainly not that. However, he has shown the ability to work within society to achieve goals (With the Lannisters, obviously).

I might move Theon down to Neutral Evil, too, for reasons that have already been said. The others are pretty much dead on.

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I Love You.

Interesting choice to put Theon as true Neutral. It would be easy to put him as evil, but I think he’s so conflicted between what is right and what is expected that the neutral alignment makes sense.

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“On Theon: I’m in the “he’s too weak to be evil” camp.”

Nonsense. Weak men doing what they perceive to be most expedient gets you some of your most ghastly evil. The fact that his heart may not have been in it will not cause those two young boys he burned alive to spring back to life.

And I’m not convinced his heart wasn’t at least a little bit in it. Even when he isn’t being pushed, Theon has considerable capacity for cruelty.

If somebody at my table were making Theon’s choices and then trying to pass the character off as True Neutral, we’d have to have a little talk.

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Jaquen, and by extension the Faceless Men, are very much True Neutral. While he had a code, it was explicitly “trading three lives for three lives”. Basically, he was balancing the scales that Arya had altered by saving the lives of those prisoners. So, very much a True Neutral philosophy there.

Theon fits into the Neutral Evil. He wishes he could be Lawful Evil, using his ‘legal’ position (the next in line to his ‘fathers’ throne, being nobility, military leader, ‘lord’ of Winterfell, etc) to his advantage, hoping to technicality his way to the top, but in returning home, the Iron Islands are a much more chaotic place, and so he has to (try) to adapt. He has to do more evil things since he can’t just get what he believes he’s owed, etc.

Not sure if Ygrette has shown enough in her brief time to be shown on the chart. She’s obviously Chaotic, and not full blown evil, but I don’t know if she could be seen as good, necessarily. She’s probably a solid Chaotic Neutral, at least for now.

I do agree on the swapping of Brienne and Davos. Davos is sort of the antithesis of Theon. Theon came from (and returned to) the Iron Islands who, are vikings to Davos’ piracy. Much like Theon has been influenced by the Starks (which made him think that bravery would inspire his people, or that things like oaths and promises and laws would actually matter), so too has Davos been influenced by Stanis. However, he is still pragmatic. Law is an ideal, not a natural state for him. In the case of Brienne, she still sees the oaths of knighthood as reality, not just an ideal that cannot really be lived up to. [As seen through much of her interaction with Jaime].

Dropping the warlocks (they work as pure evil as well, but of the people on the list, are probably the easiest to drop]. That leaves Chaotic Good open again … Not entirely sure who would fit there. The Night’s Watch are a mixed bag. Mormont would probably fit into Neutral Good, he’s proven pragmatic in terms of bending rules and looking the other way, but I wouldn’t say he’s fully into the Chaotic area. Maybe the Halfhand? His ‘plan’ with Jon is very much a breaking the rules is worth it to accomplish the goal idea, so that could fit.

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@Quixim: thanks, I read the books in pretty rapid succession about eight or nine months ago, and some of the details escape me.

I’m sticking with MGK’s “he’s too weak to be evil” line, at least as far as the TV iteration goes. Whilst he was complicit in the boy’s murder, and he scrambled to take credit so as not to appear weak, it was undoubtedly at the cajoling of others. Sad thing is, I think he wants to be evil right now, but his heart isn’t in it.

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NE is Pyat Pree, one of the Warlocks of Qarth.

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Davos and Brienne should totally be swapped! Davos isn’t above smuggling; whereas Brienne is a woman wholly dedicated to the code of knightly fealty.

Otherwise good stuff 🙂

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He does meticulously obey the rules of the Faceless Men and his deal with Arya (three lives saved, three lives taken) is an example of him sticking to that. They may not be Westeros’ rules, but they are rules. 🙂

I’ll concede the definition, though I think that’s a bit too open about what’s what. A thief may well follow the rules of the Thieves’ Guild to the letter, but that does not mean he’s Lawful. Similarly, if I believe might is right and that those who are strongest should be on top, isn’t that a set of beliefs/rules?

I mean, to me that makes Khal Drogo a Lawful character. Maybe I’m wrong, but I just don’t feel that way.

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I think you make a good point that there are limits… but I think it’s partly about what they do when no one is looking. A thief who respects the laws of the thieves’ guild and enforces them even when he’s out and about in the world, because he believes in honor amongst thieves etc? Might be ‘lawful’ in that sense. One who only does it because they don’t want to be punished because of failure to follow the rules, not so much.

That was one of the problems with the AD&D alignment system, it really requires a neutral telepathic observer.

For Drogo, he wouldn’t quite make the cut because Drogo was really a creature of his own impulses and his philosophy was ‘I’m the Khal, I’m the baddest motherfucker in the valley, and what I say goes’. That leads to a fairly fluid set of morals with only a few anchoring guideposts, and even those anchors changed thanks to Dany’s influence.

(I’m enjoying the conversation too :))

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I get the feeling back in the beginning it could have been orderly rather lawful as an alignment term though you would still have interesting arguments over definition and orderly evil doesn’t sound as menacing.

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My only issue with using lawful to relate to common law, is that it assumes there’s one objective standard that everyone is measured against, otherwise everything becomes muddled.

So, for instance, you have two kingdoms:

Kingdom A:
Has slavery and severe punishments for even the slightest variance from social contracts / the law, including a death penalty for slaves who look into the eyes of free men. There is no system of debt or credit, and anyone unable to meet their obligations can be immediately enslaved by their largest creditor. Similarly, those without work for longer than a month are immediately conscripted into civil public works, akin to slavery to the government, fatalities amongst workers on these public works projects are fairly common. They are not at war, are generally prosperous and life is generally good… for the people who aren’t criminals, slaves, or too terribly poor.

Kingdom B:
Has no slavery, has no death penalty, believes in rehabilitation / fines for almost all offenses. Those who are unable to support themselves are put on the public dole, trained, educated, and failing all else, given the option to work on government leased farms as share-croppers. Businesses are heavily taxed, but in return the kingdom offers a wide array of civil services, and there are a fair number of opportunities for merchants to invest (profitably) in ventures the king is undertaking. Life is generally good and profitable, and the quality of life for even the less fortunate is quite high.

If we were to take a judge from either kingdom they would, by the rules of their kingdom be seen as lawful. Taking one of them, and dropping them in the other kingdom doesn’t suddenly turn them chaotic, so it can’t be the local rules that determine whether they are lawful. It has to be whether they believe in the structured rule system, and working within constraints towards a larger purpose.

The alignment system is imperfect, but I think your definition of ‘Lawful’ is actually ‘Lawful Good’, as you’re putting too many elements into it that don’t really apply to the order / chaos portion.

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Evil people turn the law to improper means, while Good uphold the spirit of it.

I just defer on this part slightly, because I think both Evil and Good people can equally go for spirit and or impropriety… I tend to look at it more as a case of evil not really caring if there are thousands of bodies crushed down as grist for the mill of law.

I do think Spacesquid had a good point about Jaqen by the way. I don’t really think a Chaotic person would kill themselves because the rules required it. 🙂

Good discussion though, fun points of both sides. It’s exploring the interesting points of the alignment system that led to some of the more interesting parts of my campaign world, which is now sadly defunct.

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I think if “lawful” was changed to “orderly” or pro-order, we wouldn’t have as many arguments. The Joker has a law; it just happens to oppose the laws of most orderly societies. Order, not law, is the opposite of chaos. Not to mention laws have moral ramifications that mess with good and evil comparisons.

anyone disagree?

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Going strictly by the show, since I have yet to read the books, Stannis is a big honking fratricidal evil dude, IMO. I’m going to have to take the Lawful Neutral thing on faith and assume it’s based on stuff from the books.

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Edmure Tully, Lawful Good. Ned Stark too. Probably the only ones. Danaerys Targaryen Good. Jaime Lannister is true neutral but changes to chaotic good.

Robert Baratheon true neutral. Jon Snow Chaotic Good. Littlefinger Neutral Evil. Varys Lawful Evil.

Tywin Lannister – Lawful Evil. Robb Stark Neutral Good. Cersei – Neutral Evil. Stannis Lawful Neutral. Bronn – Chaotic Neutral.

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