So somebody emailed me saying that Dan Slott popped up on some forum somewhere and when someone “confronted” him with stuff from this post, he totally called me out for being like a net-nerd or something like that. But they didn’t give me the link and they haven’t responded to my request for it.
Now, far be it from me to assume that Dan “Using Bittorrent isn’t stealing when I’m downloading foreign TV shows, because it would be so much work to purchase a region-free DVD player and purchase DVDs of those shows instead as they become available, but don’t you dare download She-Hulk or you are dead to me” Slott answered anything I might have said in bad faith. But what can I say – I am curious as to what he said, and I’m not finding it on the Google.
Has anybody seen this?
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Slott has a history of being involved with the internet. I criticised the poor quality of BND writing before it was even published in the main book, and he responded to me. Addmitedly, his reply was mainly the argument “It Was Published On Free Comic Book Day”, but now that fans other than me have had to pay for it three times a month, I think that the fact that it was barely tolerable when free just adds to my argument.
Read more here: http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=111543
In the guy’s defense, he probably can’t go to any website dedicated to his vocation without finding someone complaining about Brand New Day.
If I was writing a high profile comic and people were calling my work shit, even if it was objectively shit and I knew it was shit, I’d probably get defensive after awhile.
As insults go “net-nerd” is like a negative three on the Internet Insult Scale, but even that seems a little over the top when the extent of the article’s complaint was that all of these mostly good stories would have worked just as well in a slightly different context.
Dan Slott is a writer that I admire so much that I try to blank out any Internet fights he’s involved in. I don’t want to find out he’s another Angry Internet Man. I just want to read his stuff.
Net-nerd? Seriously?
When you say that on an internet forum, isn’t that akin to the pot calling the kettle black?
Well, MGK didn’t call it shit, he said the story was decent but nothing spectacular, and that none of it really required the marriage to end. If Slott was offended by that he probably shouldn’t read the ‘net reviews of his work, because people get a lot harsher than that.
Dan Slott did not end the marriage and didn’t write “One More Day.” Dan was an up and coming writer who had a chance to write Spidey and took it. A lot of us would do the same, even in those circumstances. But it’s a difficult spot to be in if you want the fans and critics to like you, because they just got handed shit and are looking for the justification of better stories that Quesada preached.
So what other comic guys are famous for net fights.
I know Slott has a history of it over on CBR.
And obviously Byrne and PAD are major internet flamers.
Are these the three most notorious?
I’m sorry, but the guy who wrote the “Every Marvel continuity error ever was caused by tourists from that parallel Earth from Fantastic Four #160-163″ issue of She-Hulk has no business calling any other comic book fan a nerd.
I was actually one of the dirty pirates he begged to stop torrenting She-Hulk. I did; and as a result, I don’t buy She Hulk either. I lost all interest. For whatever that is worth.
I also think BND is a completely wretched idea and despise the very idea of it. Buuuuuut if Joey Q told me that I could write Spiderman on the condition of having to write him as ‘finally coming out of the closet and developing a gay thing with Flash thanks to those touchy feely times in junior high’ then yeah, I’d do it.
Because it would mean that I GOT TO WRITE SPIDERMAN, and I sirs, am a cheap whore. And I really want to write spiderman. And I was apparently far more effected by other free comics I read in the nurses office at school as a child (anyone else get the reference?).
Didn’t Paul O’Brien have a good tete-a-tete with JMS?
Waid’s also been involved in a few flare-ups. I don’t know the background on those, though, so he may well not have been at fault.
Slott’s always been fine in online dealings I’ve seen. I’m sure it’s tough for creators in that they can have tons of fine interactions online, but one bad day can stick with them forever. I know when I have a bad day and am snippier than I mean to be, it’s immediately forgotten, because no one cares about me. But if I were a comic creator, not so much.
What I find ironic is that when I’ve expressed myself creatively, people have told me that it was vital I develop a thick skin and learn to take criticism, whether constructive or not.
But from what I have seen, lots of professional comic book writers are TERRIBLE at taking criticism.
There are two exceptions to this that immediately come to mind. One is Chris Claremont. He has never, to my knowledge, had a moment where he told off a fan for criticizing him. Here is the closest thing that I have ever heard of, where he talks about the possibility that Nocturne had an abortion and responds to somebody asking what happened to her baby and why he didn’t touch on it when he had a chance:
That’s it. That’s as bad as it’s gotten. Hardcore Claremont-haters point to this one incident as proof he’s a dick, but compared to the way other guys like JMS, John Byrne, Slott and Peter David* have responded to criticism in the past? This is nothing. Most other times, Claremont’s responses to criticism have been more or less along the lines of “I’m sorry you didn’t enjoy it,” or “Well, here’s an explanation. (Explanation here.) I hope that clears it up for you,” from what I’ve seen.
I honestly cannot say that I’ve been a great fan of CC’s recent work, but I’ve got to admire his restraint in this area.
The other exception I can think of is Joe Quesada. I haven’t heard of him saying anything derogatory about fans, and crazy as this sounds I think I would actually feel good if he did. Because that would be a sign that those of us who are anti-OMD/BND have had an impact on him. But he doesn’t seem to care. His attitude seems to be “I got what I wanted, that marriage broken up, and if the fans don’t like it then oh well. Nothing anybody says about my decision can ruin my serenity. Ohmmmmm….ohmmmmm….”
Remember when Marvel would print issues with covers that said “Because YOU demanded it! The reutrn of (some guy)!” And when somebody would write to the letters page asking for something to happen, they’d often respond “how many other people want this to happen? Write in and tell us!” That really created the sense that this was a company that CARED what its fans wanted, that would even tailor stories around what those fans wanted. With Quesada’s meddling, it’s been proven that present day Marvel Comics is exactly the opposite; it doesn’t care what the fans want, although if the fans like the direction then that’s great. The people running the show at Marvel only care about what they want to do, and as far as they’re concerned the fans can either like it or go screw. Crazily, I think that this is a change for the worse.
*For the record I think PAD’s a great writer and I agree with most of his beliefs and usually he is a nice guy, but he can get frustrated with fans and when that happens he does not exactly bite his tongue. Which is unfortunate.
Rob, there is a difference between caring about what the fans think and giving into every piece of crap suggestion that came down the fanboi turnpike. Marvel, in fear of losing readers, would usually choose the latter and end up screwing up the quality of the book in the long run.
Regardless of whatever else Joe Quesada has done with Marvel, I at least give him props for ending that shit. The reality however, is that Joe Quesada has only replaced the crappy story ideas given to Marvel by the fanbois with the crappy story ideas that fall out of his empty head.
Not much of a trade off.
I’m not saying that fans don’t have shitty ideas sometimes, nor am I exactly disagreeing with you that listeningi to everything they ask you to do is bad, but would you mind giving me an example of one of the “piece of crap” suggestions that was used by Marvel?
Another thing is how you’re not supposed to fix something if it isn’t broken. This wasn’t a question of whether or not to give in to a suggestion; no suggestion had been made. “Don’t change anything, we like things just the way they are,” is not a suggestion.
The status quo with the marriage wasn’t interfering with the stories. I think MGK proved that in the post Slott dislikes so much. So the question becomes: if you break up the marriage, is that in itself going to attract new readers, and do so in a way that some other shocking development (new costume, unmasking, etc.) would not? The other question: if the marriage is broken up, how many of our readers will we alienate? How many readers will we lose?
These are the questions Joe Quesada should have been asking.
I grew up in an era where Scott Summers was involved either with Jean Grey or Madelyne Pryor. Having both women killed off and putting him with Emma Frost was, IMO, a bad call. If I got to be EIC of Marvel one day through some infinitely improbable fluke, I would be tempted to get rid of Emma and put Jean or Maddie (the non-evil version of Maddie) back in the picture.
Except maybe enough time has passed by that point that in this scenario the fans don’t want Scott and Emma broken up. So what do I do? What’s more important: my wishes, or those of my customers? One of us is said to be always right, and much as I might wish otherwise it ain’t me.
Ideally I think there should be a collaboration between the people who write stories for a living and have proven themselves in that area and the people who buy those stories and know what they like and what they don’t. Marvel should be open to suggestions, as should DC, as should everybody. They should seriously consider every one. But if somebody writes in and says something like “Hey, you know what would be awesome? Giving Reed Richards Alzheimers’ disease and have Sue dump him in order to start dating Big Bertha,” they should say “Um, no, that ain’t happening.”
Is OMD the Goodwin of comic arguments now?
Godwin’s Law doesn’t really apply here, as it dictates that the longer a conversation goes the more likely it is to fall upon discussion of Nazis. A conversation about Nazis is pretty well exempt from Godwin’s Law.
A) How is this article about nazis?
B) I was making the comparison that the longer a conversation related to comics goes on, the more likley people will use the opportunity to bitch about One More Day
Didn’t Paul O’Brien have a good tete-a-tete with JMS?
I know Claremont once specifically mentioned O’Brien in an interview as an example of an Internet critic who was frustrated with his work.
Rob Brown: “Giving Reed Richards Alzheimers’ disease and have Sue dump him in order to start dating Big Bertha.” You have no idea how much I want to read this.
A) How is this article about nazis?
MastaP, at first I thought that he was saying this was a discussion about Nazis. Then I realized he wasn’t.
He said that Godwin’s Law dictates the longer a conversation goes on, the more likely it becomes that the subject of Nazis will come up, and that it doesn’t apply if the subject of the conversation to begin with is Nazis.
Likewise, if OMD is the Godwin of comic arguments, then it doesn’t apply if the subject of the conversation to begin with is OMD. Which, in this case, it was. Specifically, it was about Slott’s reaction to somebody saying to him “Hey, MightyGodKing wrote all about how these stories of yours didn’t require a single Peter Parker and that OMD was unnecessary.”
So to Dan Slott on the off chance he sees this (hey, you never know; WARREN ELLIS has posted here!)…let me make it crystal clear that nobody is calling you a Nazi, and you do not have anything to get up in arms about. You either, Joe Quesada.
Anyway as to your original question, I’ve found that it depends on the original subject. If it happens to be about how the industry is run, or about the competence of certain creators, there’s a pretty good chance that OMD will come up.
You have no idea how much I want to read this.
Why not write it? This may very well be the first in an ongoing list of reasons why Lister Sage Should Write Fantastic Four!
Rob, right off the top of my head:
Venom 2099’s appearance in Spider-Man 2099
Goblin 2099’s existence
The inclusion of “I’m the juggernaut bitch” in X-men 3
I’d have to research for others, but the lion’s share of the problems that affected the 2099 line in the early 90’s could be traced to the nonsense that was showing up in the letters’ page on a regular basis. Hell, I remember when the 90’s Ghost Rider actually put a survey in the back of one of their issues and literally begged the readers for ideas.
For the longest time The Thunderbolts made excellent work of taking what the fans wanted and twisting it so they never got exactly what they wanted. Unfortunately, it only lasted so long and I can only assume they lost their audience after they half-assed a New Team of Thunderbolts (which Graviton killed off in the single most brutal issue I’ve ever read) – because shortly afterwards, they changed format to tell the story of some super-villain/boxer or something.
Comic book companies should only be open to creative criticism, and never to creative direction. Fanbois need to grow up and acknowledge that merely buying the comic book does not give them clout on the editorial board. As Harlan Ellison put it, buying the book should only entitle you to the book.
The truth is a lot of readers can’t stand change of any kind and these clowns will alienate themselves from the book regardless of whether any specific change is good or bad or really has no impact on the character development. I say get rid of them early and good riddance.
So if dan slott says something on the internet, but google is not there to hear it, does it make a sound?
By which I OBVIOUSLY mean “did anyone find the post in question, or was it being made up by whoever emailed MGK?”. 🙂
I wouldn’t know about Venom and the Goblin since the only 2099 books I read were Doom 2099 and X-Men 2099. I’ll take your word for it. And there wasn’t a whole lot to rave about in X-Men 3, Juggernaut’s line being no exception. 😉
Breaking up the T-Bolts following issue #50 was a mistake and I’m sure it cost them readers (even though they did continue to show us what was going on with Hawkeye, Melissa, Abe and Karla). I don’t think that the Redeemers were as bad as you do, but obviously I’d prefer the original team any day and a team of new characters with the only familiar faces being Jolt, Fixer and an increasingly unstable Charcoal just didn’t cut it.
But anyway, back to the original topic…
“Fanbois need to grow up and acknowledge that merely buying the comic book does not give them clout on the editorial board.”
The way I see it, they should have about the same clout as somebody who owns a few shares of stock in a corporation but is far from being a majority shareholder. Those people get to attend the meetings, make their voices heard, and vote. They don’t have absolute control, but they have some control. That’s the amount of control I think fans should have.
A fan shouldn’t have as much control as an editor, no. But if most of the fans (instead of one fan or a few fans) are saying “DON’T DO THIS!”, that should give the editor pause. In this case, based on what you said about Quesada’s empty head, I think we agree that those fans were right. Even if their prior track record is sort of questionable.
Rob: “This may very well be the first in an ongoing list of reasons why Lister Sage Should Write Fantastic Four!” The problem with this idea is that I don’t like FF. Never have. I own a handful of FF comics, most of them from Dwane McDuffie’s run (the future Doom arc only, to explain why would take an essay). Mainly because I hate Reed Richards (Riiichaaaaaaaaaaaards!). Write him out you say? Then it wouldn’t be the Fantastic Four would it?
In fact the only book I can actually see myself doing a “I Should Write the…” series is The Captain. Because of his limbo state in comics, he’s a blank book onto which anything can be written.
Other comics I could also see myself writing for: the X-Men, Deadpool, or the GLI. Granted, writing X-Men would be for purely fanboy reasons given that was the series that got me into comics and there are “problems” (because I think they’re problems) I have with the way they are written nowadays that I would want to “fix” (which some people I doubt would like).
Deadpool, Captain and the GLI give me free reign to write the sillest, strangest, most fucked up shit I can think of and not have it be OOC, as it were, for those characters to be involved in those situations.
Zenrage: Here’s the problem with Marvel: Marvel has recently taken to the marketing slogan “Marvel. Your Universe.” Now in my Marvel Universe: Spider-Man is still married, Jean Grey isn’t dead, Wolverine isn’t everywere and doesn’t suck, Luke Cage, Spider-Man, Wolverine, Iron Fist and Dr. Strange aren’t on the Avengers, there doesn’t need to be six X-Men, Avengers or Spider-Man books, and I would never have to see the names Brian Michael Bendis, Mark Millar or Joss Whedon on a comic book ever.
Guess it’s not really “my” universe is it?
They simultaneously want the fans to think that their opinions matter and to fuck off. Not that this is a new idea, but it doesn’t fucking work. It just leaves you with pissed fans and bitter creators. (Sorry for the double post.)
Didn’t Paul O’Brien have a good tete-a-tete with JMS?
I know Claremont once specifically mentioned O’Brien in an interview as an example of an Internet critic who was frustrated with his work.
To be fair, as far as I know, Paul O’Brien’s never claimed to not be an Internet critic who finds the work of Claremont frustrating, and I’m pretty sure that he has said that the work of Claremont frustrates him…
So no one’s seen the Dan Slott response? I’m interested in this myself.
Lister Sage: has The Captain popped up anywhere since the cancelation of NextWave, or might we have seen the last of him? 🙁
Rob: As far as I know Nextwave was the last thing Marvel’s bothered to put him in. My guess is that we won’t see him again unless they restart Nextwave. Any news on the Nextwave front Mr. Ellis?
http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=16075023&postcount=10
http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=16075437&postcount=12
That’s probably what you’re looking for?
Pretty much alls he says is Kurt Busiek’s opinion is more important than yours. Which I’m prepared to say is probably fair.