So Wizard Magazine - yes, that Wizard Magazine - recently published their “top 200 characters of all time” list. The only reason I know this is because I got emails and comments in large numbers asking me for my take on this. (God knows why. I mean, I’m not Scott McCloud or anything.)
My take, firstly, is that it is Wizard. Wizard is a shitty magazine written by condescending assholes who cater to the ultimate-fanboy bloc and try to hold themselves above the teeming masses while simultaneously engaging in its basest whims. (Or, more simply: they mock fanboys then make cheap titty jokes about female characters. I can’t stand people who try to have it both ways. Either be a schmuck or don’t, but either way, embrace your choice.) Making fun of Wizard is like shooting babies in a barrel, except you feel less bad afterwards.
Also, Brainiac Five is not on it, which means it is flawed right from the get-go.
But, regardless. First, let us consider their rationale for creating this list:
What follows is a rundown of the 200 stars who have transcended their original concepts and are, whether it’s from direct influence or a distant ripple effect, those that resonate in 2008. In some cases, we’ve followed their stories for decades; others made only a single, but spectacular, impression. But all of them possess dimensions so real that we can practically imagine their lungs expanding, their triumphs and tragedies as poignant as anything on the front page.
And right off the bat, Wizard pulls out their fanboy cock and jacks it roughly.
Wolverine is interesting in that, for the vast majority of his existence, he’s more or less been a Byronic hero, complete with all the lack of substance that implies. He has a Dark Past that has made him a Troubled Man. He’s simplistic by design, because he’s a vehicle for stories far moreso than he is a driver of personal narrative. Quite simply, there’s no there there, so much so that in the last two years writers have written Wolverine at being both in the Nazi death camps in late 1944 and at Hiroshima in early 1945 (that’s a hell of a commute!). It doesn’t matter that all the backstory that’s being added to Wolverine conflicts, because good Wolverine stories aren’t intended to be part of an exacting history but rather the introduction of Wolverine as a dramatic agent into the writer’s situation of choice.
This is fine. (You can say the same thing about Humphrey Bogart’s Rick in Casablanca.) But Wolverine, fun narrative tool though he might be, isn’t a particularly interesting character. He’s usually mostly a cliche - the Man With No Name (And Claws). Ask yourself what Logan’s favorite beer is. I mean, he drinks enough of it, right? You’d think any reasonably knowledgeable comics reader would know his favorite; that’s a detail that implies that the character has likes and dislikes beyond what the reader imprints upon him.
Wolverine doesn’t have that, because he’s ultimately more of a plot device than a character. At times he’s threatened to break out as a character in his own right, but he’s never really done it.
2. Batman
3. Spider-Man
4. Superman
Any list of top comic book characters would naturally have all three of these in the top five; they’re all enduring classics. But I’d like to point out that Superman, in particular, has been robbed of the #1 spot. Without Superman, there is no rest of the list. Hell, without Superman there’s a good argument that there’s no comic books period after the mid-40s.
But all three are good characters in their own right, not plot devices like Wolverine usually is. Superman likes rich food (because he can’t get fat) and enjoys quiet moments with ordinary people because it’s something he doesn’t get often; Spider-Man is a science geek whose tendency to be broke means he subconsciously forces himself to prefer old-school technology; Batman is the world’s most accomplished human in just about any skill, but can’t cook worth a damn because Alfred always does it for him.
Probably it’s because they’ve all been driving their own narratives for so long that their personalities have gradually become formed into a consensus whole, which says something about the strength of their characters arising through the shared storytelling, I think.
5. The Joker
More of a plot device than a character, but he’s memorable and distinctive, if nothing else, and when written properly isn’t just an amorphous tool for writer self-insertion. He’s getting points here mostly for his existing cachet.
When was the last really good Joker story, anyway? He hasn’t been in a good story in forever, mostly because nobody seems to know how to write him worth a damn any more. (Morrison’s Joker is creepy without being funny, which misses the point of the character.) It’s endless mass-murderer stories, one after another, most of which commit the unpardonable sin of having a cheesy, unentertaining Joker. The last Joker story with a really entertaining Joker was probably Last Laugh, which suffered from being a bad idea off the bat, but at least was funny.
6. Rorschach
Sure. I wouldn’t necessarily put Rorshach in the top ten, but he’s exactly the sort of character who should make the high rankings on this list: unforgettable and unique.
7. Captain America
Cap’s a surprisingly complex fellow. He should rank highly.
8. Hellboy
I like all the Hellboy comics I’ve read, but for me they work more as an example of Mignola’s mastery of tone and storytelling more than because Hellboy is really Just That Fascinating A Guy. But I haven’t read nearly so much Hellboy as some people have, so I’m probably not the best person to judge his ranking here.
9. Magneto
Magneto’s one of those characters who’s gotten a lot less impressive with age as writer after writer has done their level best to muddy and complexify a very simple focus: he’s a Holocaust survivor who thinks he’s seen the next one coming and will take any steps necessary to avoid it. It’s such a great hook, and it’s no surprise that people think highly of the concept, because it’s a great concept - it starts from a realistic point of desperation and takes that to a logical and villainous conclusion.
He hasn’t been written well in forever, though.
10. John Constantine
Auto-include in the top ten. You shouldn’t even have to think twice.
11. The Thing
Ben Grimm probably would have to be somewhere in the top twenty if only for his relatively inexplicable and lasting appeal to every comic fan ever born. I think it was Mark Waid who said that the Thing is one of the simplest, least complicated characters in comics, and that this is precisely why he’s so beloved and works so well.
12. Snake-Eyes
Now this is the first truly “no, wait, what?” pick on the list, because Snake-Eyes, even moreso than Wolverine, is a cipher - intentionally so. He’s meant to be a blank slate for the reader to imprint himself upon. What do you expect - the guy was originally designed to be a cool action figure. He is an expressionless ninja with next to no personality. “Remember that time Snake-Eyes had a swordfight with Storm Shadow” is not a character moment, okay?
13. Kitty Pryde
I’m one of the few people curiously neutral about Kitty Pryde; I’m not one of the rabid fans who grew up with her and adore her to pieces as their fantasy best friend/girlfriend, and I’m not one of the anti-Kitty reactionaries who loathe her overexposure and tendency to be glorified by writers who are part of the first camp just mentioned (see Whedon, Joss). I wouldn’t have had her in my top twenty, but then again my top twenty would have looked a lot different than this one. I can see how she makes the list, though.
14. Jesse Custer
I think Cassidy is probably the most compelling and interesting character to come out of Preacher, with Tulip a close second. Jesse suffers a bit from Predictably Heroic Leading Man Syndrome. (See also: Jack from Lost, who has the same problem but worse.) Which is all right, because he was the hero of the book, but it also means he’s not as memorable as Cassidy or Tulip.
15. Wonder Woman
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz *snork* *shifts* zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: barring the runs of George Perez and Greg Rucka, Wonder Woman is a fifty-year-old boring cipher of a character with tremendously little to recommend her past her eminence as the First Major Female Character In Comics. But at some point, you have to stop and think that if someone else had been the first major female character in comics, Wonder Woman would now be nothing more than an in-joke among dedicated comics fans wanting to pointedly comment about bondage fantasies, or possibly due for rehabilitation in an Alex Ross project where all the Golden Age characters from company X band together to fight a non-descript evil of some sort.
16. Lex Luthor
One of my all-time favorite characters, because his status as a villain - really, the villain - is so explicable and definite, borne out of envy and pride as it is. Lex Luthor is in many ways the superheroic equivalent of Lucifer: he could have been the greatest of all had he not chosen to fall from grace, but what caused him to fall from grace was in part what made him great in the first place. The Joker gets all the press, but Lex is the real deal when it comes to great villains.
Aside: I really loved Grant Morrison’s portrayal of him in both All-Star Superman and also his brief appearance in Final Crisis. (”You presume I have no creed? My creed is Luthor.”) I’m hoping that Morrison follows through: Luthor shouldn’t cravenly fall in line with all the other baddies. His pride would never allow it.
17. Morpheus
Almost definitely demanded a spot in the top twenty. No further comment.
18. Doctor Doom
God knows I love me some Doctor Doom, and so does everybody else. But it’s not just because he refers to himself in the third person a lot. (Well, that’s part of it.) His appeal is much like Lex Luthor’s - were it not for his pride he would be the paramount man in all the world, but because of his pride he is so very much less. Which is exactly why he’s such a great villain.
19. The Hulk
The Hulk is interesting in that the best Hulk stories almost inevitably veer away from the basic “monster inside the man” principle to become more complex - literalist interpretations of multiple personality syndrome, innate psychological conflict, and lots of other conflicts purely mental and self-directed in nature. But although everybody likes and respects those stories, what they really want to see the Hulk do is smash.
Which in turn says a lot about the audience, doesn’t it?
20. Miracleman
I’ve never read it - I’m not going to buy the issues, you can’t find the trades anywhere and when they do they’re expensive as all get out because they’ve been out of print for literally decades, and I haven’t found a download yet. So no comment.
21. Daredevil
Wouldn’t have made my top twenty either, but definitely top fifty.
22. Commissioner James Gordon
The first “supporting character” to make the list, and it’s an interesting choice because Gordon is frequently a bit of a cipher - he’s Batman’s old-school cop friend. I’m the first to admit that thanks to numerous dedicated writers he’s transcended that in his own focused stories, but writers too frequently fall into the traps you’d expect with such a character, which means it’s very hard to write a very good Jim Gordon.
23. Yorick Brown
This is about the right placement for Yorick. He’s a fully realized character and his journey through his series is interesting and genuine, but for someone with such an epic title (”the last man on earth”), the story he was in never really quite jumped up to eleven like you’d expect. Besides, 355 is just more interesting than he is. Yorick suffers from Snoopy Syndrome.
24. Marv
Characters from Sin City - by design a series of recycled pulp tropes - should not make this list. Period. Marv isn’t even the most interesting one.
25. The Spirit
Wizard here seem desperate for critical credibility. “Hey! People think Will Eisner is hot shit! Let’s put the Spirit in the list! It’ll show that we know stuff!” But the Spirit himself is a genial but empty shell; he was a tool for Eisner to tell stories and tinker with the form of comics and storytelling. His inclusion in this list is the first obvious indication that, as expected, Wizard has no idea what they’re trying to do and are half-assing their way through an article idea that could have been a lot more engaging.
26. Cassidy
Swap places with Jesse Custer and you’re closer to the mark. Cassidy’s tragic arc is the best thing about Preacher - so much so that Ennis pretty obviously shifted gears to accomodate his story first and foremost, and this in a series where the original hook was “man goes to find God and beat him up” so you get a sense of how strong Cassidy’s story ended up being. Cassidy also gets all the best lines in the series, and that’s frequently a sign of a strong character.
27. Green Goblin
Dr. Octopus is the Spider-Man villain with resonance. The Goblin is honestly just a garden-variety psychopath with a silly costume and a lot of power; there’s never been anything special about the Goblin himself. One of the most overrated villains in comics and always has been. Now, if we were talking about Harry Osborn rather than Norman, this would be a different thing entirely; Harry Osborn is fascinating, and his gradual, sometimes unwilling collapse into villainy and final redemption is one of the truly great Spider-Man stories, both for his own descent and Peter’s reaction to it. (This is of course why Marvel decided to vanish it out of continuity with magical demon wishing.)
28. Fone Bone
“Wizard picks an indie character to show that they have depth,” volume II. (This would be a lot less obvious if they didn’t keep going back to the five non-big-two series they’ve actually managed to read.) Of course, cynicism aside, Bone is one of the masterworks of the medium, and Fone Bone is the deepest and most engaging character in the series. I honestly would have ranked him higher.
29. Ozymandias
It’s interesting that, of all the characters in Watchmen, Wizard studiously avoided the most fascinating one in the entire series (the Comedian) as well as the most adventurous (Dr. Manhattan) and instead picked the more conventional choices: the grim vigilante, the bright-eyed hero, and the villain.
30. The Flash
They don’t exactly specify Wally per se, but they mention him so let’s just assume it’s Wally. And I have zero problem with Wally ranking fairly high on the list; he’s had a great coming-of-age journey over the last twenty-five years, from sidekick to uncertain lead (remember his slutting-around period?) to confident lead to married man to family man. Wally’s journey has been done so well that many people reacted negatively to the teasing of the recent, nigh-pointless return of Barry Allen. How often does that happen in comics fandom? “Oh god I can’t believe they brought back a popular character from the dead! That ruins things!” People accepted the return of Bucky, for crissake.
31. Tulip O’Hare
Okay, now having traded Jesse and Cassidy’s positions already, now swap Tulip with Jesse’s new position and that’s about right, although you could probably drop Jesse a little more. Tulip’s a genre-busting, expectation-smashing character who’s never compromised in the slightest by a complex, shifting plot. She kicks ass, and not in a generic Lara Croft sort of way, but in the highly personal and developed manner of a fully realized individual.
32. Green Arrow
See, if we were talking Mike Grell era Green Arrow, I’d be right on board, but you know they’re not talking about that complex character written in mature, muted tones. They’re talking about boring, one-note “I Am A Liberal Look At Me Spout My Liberal Politics” Green Arrow, who is less interesting with every passing year. It’s not the 1970s, folks, and as great as Neal Adams was I don’t see the need to keep recycling his ideas over and over again.
33. Death
Was going to be on here somewhere and I’m fine with it.
34. Luke Cage
Four years ago I would have disagreed and said this was just blatant fanboy pandering. Say what you will about Brian Michael Bendis (and a lot of it is justified) - he’s done more than any writer period to flesh out and develop Luke Cage as an original individual in his own right rather than simply being a blaxploitation pastiche. I still don’t know that I would rank Cage anywhere near this high - it’s worth mentioning, yet again, how incredibly narrow-focused Wizard’s list is - but I’d consider him now, where previously I wouldn’t have.
35. Conan the Barbarian
It seems kind of weird including a character whose origin lies in other media in this sort of list. (See also: G.I. Joe characters.) Does this mean we should get offended that Darth Vader didn’t make the list? There are a lot more Star Wars comics than Conan comics, right? How about Predator? Or the Terminator? Et cetera.
36. Iron Man
On the one hand, Tony Stark is probably the most interestingly flawed character Marvel owns; a character who treats superheroism as ongoing personal therapy, and when he’s written right he’s fascinating as a warts-and-all hero. On the other hand, when he’s written wrong, he’s disastrous, and I’m not just talking about his Civil War stint as Iron Fascist, but also the time spent as the Avengers traitor in the service of Kang, and Teen Tony, and whatever the fuck Orson Scott Card is doing with Ultimate Iron Man, and… geez, there are a lot of shitty Iron Man comic books out there, huh?…
37. Barbara Gordon
Probably the only example where a maiming with slightly misogynistic overtones wholly improved a character, without question, by giving her a unique role that has become so prominent and fantastically obvious in retrospect that nowadays people keep copying it. It’s a brilliant and fairly literal application of the old “brains over brawn” maxim, and it works perfectly.
38. Spider Jerusalem
Should have been top ten. Spider might be a self-insert for Warren Ellis, but that only explains why everybody wants to go out drinking with Warren Ellis. The bruised, self-destructive prophet in continual mourning (not that he’d ever admit such a thing) and a taste for monkey burgers remains Ellis’ masterwork, and Ellis has written a lot of goddamned good comics, so that’s no small praise.
39. The Punisher
There are some characters whose place on this list I might quibble with. The Punisher is not one of them; Garth Ennis’ infamous dark-souled murderer is probably now the definitive take on the character and will last for a very, very long time indeed until writers who are not Garth Ennis display that they do not understand how to write like Garth Ennis, and the book gets cancelled, and the Punisher comes back five years later as, I dunno, a clown or something.
40. Thor
I’ve never been a big Thor fan. I’ve read the Walt Simonson stuff, and yeah, it’s good, but it’s not good because of Thor specifically - it’s more because of the scope of his story and the supporting cast. Balder, Beta Ray Bill, the Executioner - all of Thor’s best stories are really about other people, to me. Thor’s fun and all. I just don’t think he ranks as a “best comic character.” (Cue Chris Sims to tell me I am full of crap.)
41. Mr. Fantastic
Great character. Tends to get written simplistically a lot more than most (the fate of many a “science nerd” oriented character), but that doesn’t make him not good. Mark Waid’s note on Reed in his F4 manifesto, comparing Reed to a slightly more civilized and polite version of Doc Savage, is excellent reading in its own right, incidentally.
42. Hal Jordan
The greatest retcon in DC history is Geoff Johns somehow getting people to believe that Hal Jordan had anything resembling a personality prior to 2004. He’s improved a bit over the last couple of years, but no way would I ever put him on this list even if I ignored the fact that I dislike boring old Hal Jordan quite a bit. He’s less interesting than Guy or Kyle, less appealing than Jonh Stewart or Kilowog, and does not have a cool head fin like Tomar-Tu.
43. Jimmy Corrigan
“We read Acme Novelty Warehouse! We’re relevant!”
44. Jack Knight
A predictable pick for the top fifty, certainly. That doesn’t mean it’s not warranted. Starman is (James Robinson’s storytelling foibles aside) one of the great modern comics works, and Jack’s journey one of the great modern comics journeys - oddly comparable to Wally West’s in a number of ways but over a more compressed timeframe and with a singular voice dictating the pace of events. And moreso than many characters, Jack’s voice is distinctive and singular.
45. Hawkeye
Yeah, he deserves a spot. This Ronin stuff is kind of dumb (okay, it’s really, really dumb - Hawkeye is Hawkeye, not a ninja), but historically there’s no way Hawkeye doesn’t deserve a spot; he’s brash and cocky and obstinate and loyal and funny and wholly unique, and is that rare example of a character who’s almost never been written poorly even when thrust into the most ludicrous situations imaginable. (Like being Goliath again.)
46. Jessica Jones
Maybe she makes top two hundred, but top fifty? Look, Alias was a good comic and all, but it wasn’t so good that she instantly becomes One Of The Great Characters, you know?
47. Silver Surfer
I haven’t really read a lot of Silver Surfer comics, so I don’t feel equipped to really judge whether he’s a good character or not. What Surfer I’ve read seems to illustrate a fairly standard cosmic hero (most of whom owe a large debt to Superman). Appreciates all life, as content with oneself as can be, et cetera. Kind of bland, really.
48. Professor X
Started off as a generic commander type, but over the years gradually evolved - not into something sinister per se, but definitely more manipulative and willing to commit to desperate action where necessary. Definitely still one of the good guys, but he’s gotten a lot less moralistic and a lot more pragmatic as the years have passed. I’m not sure whether it’s a sign of growth or of inconsistency or of shifting paradigms. Could be all three, really.
49. Black Adam
One of the most deeply overrated chumps to come down the pike in a very long time; started off as a second-rate Captain Marvel villain and then, through a lengthy period where multiple writers decided that what the DC Universe really, really needed was the most blatant imitation of Namor humanly possible, hamfistedly thrown into conflict with superheroes through editorial fiat that never even came close to making sense. A shame, because the basic concept of Captain Marvel-but-not-heroic is a good one; he’s never been used particularly cleverly.
50. Cobra Commander
Oh, come on.
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A few thoughts: I’d actually say Conan does belong in comics, which will probably get me lynched by Conan fans but frankly, I don’t think he became a fully-realized character until Frazetta drew him, and then Windsor-Smith and Buscema layered their own interpretations on him. So much of Conan comes from that look, the sullen, brooding intensity that Frazetta gave him on those old paperback covers…it’s like he was there, but he wasn’t complete until you saw that. (You may commence the lynching.)
What makes the Thing work is Stan Lee’s dialogue. It absolutely drips personality. Over the first 102 issues of that series, he went from being a generic anti-hero to being “the ever-lovin’ blue-eyed idol o’ millions.” You could strip the art out of an FF comic–hell, you could strip the art out of a comic book, period, and you would know when Ben Grimm was talking. Now that’s character.
Love the love for Hawkeye, one of my all-time favorite characters. He’s someone who’s managed to mature without becoming dull, which is an amazing triumph; part of that, I think, is because he’s a character who’s cocky because he’s good. He fought another archer (Imus Champion) who tried to shoot a bomb Hawkeye was standing next to from the limit of his ability to hit a target at range…Hawkeye shot the guy’s bowstring out from under him. Triumphantly bad-ass moment.
Professor X really didn’t “start out” moralistic so much as Claremont wrote him that way, and everyone starts reading X-Men with Claremont; the original Lee/Kirby Xavier was always a cold-hearted pragmatist with a ruthless streak a mile wide. This is a man who, back before he had a Danger Room, tested his X-Men by having them throw bowling balls at each others’ heads when they weren’t looking. That’s not the mark of a noble spirit.
I’ll throw in a few scattered thoughts….
Wolverine at the top of the list bothers me immensely; the X-men at their best have always been a plot over character, idea over logic type of group. Even though I’m a gigantic Gambit fanboy, I’d say that Emma Frost circa-Morrison is one of the few current X-men to actually have a compelling personal narrative and be written half-decently.
Honestly, the Batman versus Superman versus Spider-man debate is one of semantics and bores me silly.
Wizard does get massive kudos for putting Tara Chace from Rucka’s Q&C at #51; she is far and away the best female character I’ve ever seen potrayed in the medium. How the hell do you forget Kate from Manhunter though?
Maybe it’s just me, but I’ve never seen the pathos and cult of personality over The Joker. He’s crazy. Haha. I get it, let’s move on. In terms of pure character potential Harvey Dent remains the biggest untapped character in the DCU and it’s a damned shame that Robinson ruined him during his terrible OYL clusterfuck of a Batman story.
While we’re on the same page with Wolverine (top 20, ok, but NUMBAH ONE? Nah) and Wonder Woman (talk about your token inserts), not to mention the GI Joe characters. Considering how many f’ing x-Men there are, you’d think someone who is not “angry stabber” or “bald cripple” would show up. I get not using Cyclops, or Colossus, or Storm, but Kitty Pryde being the only other X-Man? It’s not like popularity was their standard (Magneto excluded on villainy).
And holy hell do I second Jessica Jones not belonging on part 1 of this list (if at all) and Hal Jordan? Where’s Rop Lot Fan? Come on, where’s my Mogo? Talk about unique characters - he’s a fucking planet with super powers.
That said, I feel like while Black Adam does feel very similar to Namor - he’s still a fascinating character and Tomasai did great things with him in his recent mini. And that Iron Man written by Orson Scott Card is pretty good, but Iron Man written by Matt Fraction is off the charts awesome.
Overall - total disappointment in this list, and that’s just from the top 50.
Yeah, they lost me right out of the gate with wolvie. Nothing says “I’m a raving famboy living in my parent’s basement at 35.” like placing Wolverine ahead of Superman, Spiderman & Batman.
These entries are fingerprints as to where and when these editors entered the comics fandom. I’m thinking that if they submerged in the medium in the mid-late ’80s, then yes, Wolverine is going to be nigh-implacable as your iconic hero of four-color narrative. (Ditto the prominence of the Watchmen characters.) I can’t take them seriously as a ratings system — I don’t see how they’re of any use beyond their own personal event horizons except as grist for the mill — and find them more enlightening about the people who compiled the list than about the characters or their inherent value or contributions to the medium.
and I haven’t found a download yet
…We should talk.
Two comments:
#1:
The Goblin is honestly just a garden-variety psychopath with a silly costume and a lot of power; there’s never been anything special about the Goblin himself.
Don’t forget, this is Wizard. Who is The Green Goblin, according to the majority of the world? He’s Willem Dafoe chewing scenery madly through *three* films despite dying in the first one.
And at the end of 2, I was genuinely excited to see Harry’s fate in 3. Then I saw 3, and wanted to bleach my brain.
But that’s not the point. The point is that the Goblin they’re thinking of is the *cool* Goblin.
#2: On Conan
It seems kind of weird including a character whose origin lies in other media in this sort of list.
Conan, like Remo Williams, was always a comic-book character. He just happened to be in novels.
Wizard’s writers are asshats. Wolverine getting placed at #1 proves it.
Oh, and as far as Silver Surfer goes — have you read Silver Surfer: Requiem? While it doesn’t really have the length necessary to give the Surfer a real personality, it’s a damn good story nonetheless, and the art is amazing (in my opinion).
Green Goblin would have been forgotten if he wasn’t the one who killed Gwen Stacy. His “death” right after also helped cement him in comics history. The Gwen Stacy thing was really the only memorable moment the character ever had. I agree, Doc Ock was always much more interesting.
The problem with The Joker is that he’s supposed to be this walking personification of personal, human horror and hence, moreso than any other character, everybody’s going to have their own Joker. The concept is very solid (a man who reduces all life to a meaningless laugh), and it’s worked well with other characters (like The Comedian, for example), but the idea of the Joker sounds so good when you hear it that, you’re expectations are automatically set higher than the writing can match. Maybe it’s that the character’s been overhyped, maybe we just expect too much from the man Batman supposedly fears, but The Joker will never manage to top his own PR.
That said, The Laughing Fish should probably be recognized as one of the greatest ideas in comicdom, even if the execution itself in hardly legendary. That story is the perfect example of what the Joker should be.
I like Thor immensely, but that’s because I’m giant mythology buff and I grew up on The Oxford Book of Myths For Children. Volume 2 was pretty good for the first two years or so in a “fun, punch-up but with a little bit of moral complexity” kind of way, and JMS has been doing really good work with Volume 3. I don’t think Thor has ever really met his potential, although the new stuff is finally coming close. He may be, ironically enough, the closest thing Marvel may have to Sandman — a character who is at once larger-than-life and frail-as-man and through whom we see the interactions of the sublime and the mortal. And he gets the best damn sound effects ever.
THRAKKKKAAAA-DOOOOM!
Miracleman should most definitely be on that list, although I don’t know at what ranking. Honestly, I wouldn’t use MM himself, but his villainous counter-part, Bates.
Here is a Miracleman download.
http://rs.4chan.org/?s=miracleman
And a more convenient (IMHO) torrent.
http://www.h33t.com/details.php?id=7c07a9a84a1d9f476a25590953408287f603b061
Yeah, I have to agree that Conan has always been a natural fit with comics, even if he didn’t originate there; I think if we referred to Tarzan or The Shadow as “comic book characters” no one would blink, even though they’re in the same boat, so I’d say the same for Conan. And I’m not sure there *have* been more Star Wars comics than Conan ones, have there?
This is a neat idea for a series of articles, even if it just comes back to “Wizard sucks” over and over again. But by commenting on their entries, you’re actually giving it a real purpose! Huzzah!
Oh, by the way…I’d like to understand your logic for “without Superman, there’s no comics post-mid-40s”. I don’t think I agree with that, especially given the fact that the comics-reading public seemed to lose interest in superheroes right about that time. I guess you could argue that without Supes, ADVENTURE comics might not have made it post-Comics Code, since superheroes were one of the few action concepts you could do under their rules…but then, the rules were largely shaped by the superhero comics publishers anyway, so without Superman there wouldn’t have been a DC to drive EC out of business.
Sorry…still bitter.
I pretty much agree with almost all of what you said in this, but want to throw out that Ellis has been doing some fantastic character work with Norman Osbourne over in Thunderbolts. Once Thunderbolts gets cancelled/rebooted all of that will almost certainly get thrown out, but right now Ellis has succeeded in making Osbourne an actually interesting compelling character. Top 30 characters of all time interesting? No, not really. But he has given him some substance and fleshed out the 2d “Hates spiderman and is nuts” character sketch into a believable (and funny) monomaniac.
The thing about lists like this (this one excepted as its pish) is that if they are honest then they arent actually interesting. Basically because there are precious few undiscovered gems in comics. Most of the best characters are damn obvious, so 90% of the entries on (an honest) list would be prefaced with “An obvious choice but…”, eg Jack Knight. Everyone knows that he is a fleshed out interesting character, so its not interesting to point out that he is.
As an aside, Superman wouldnt feature on any list of well developed interesting characters I made. INFLUENTIAL characters of all time, certainly. But hes far better as an icon than as a character. Much like wonderwoman really.
I really really really want to write a defence of Wolverine right now. Because although he’s not my favourite character, as such, and I can’t honestly disagree with those who say he’s overexposed, I still love him dearly, and I think there’s a lot more to him than you’re allowing here. But someone else’s comments field is not the best place for this kind of exercise, so I shall refrain.
I’m a bit stunned that Yorick Brown makes the top 50 and Agent 355 doesn’t. That looks to me like the choice of someone who hasn’t actually read Y: The Last Man.
Mark Waid’s note on Reed in his F4 manifesto, comparing Reed to a slightly more civilized and polite version of Doc Savage, is excellent reading in its own right, incidentally.
do you have a link? i’d love to read that, i love reed
7. Captain America
Cap’s a surprisingly complex fellow. He should rank highly.
It’s interesting how differently people view him; I completely agree with you, which was why I was boggled when Kalinara recently was all gungho for a wrestler to play Cap, because he wasn’t a complicated character like Iron Man or the Hulk and didn’t need an actor to play!
9. Magneto
He hasn’t been written well in forever, though.
Partially because he was a far more interesting character when he was reforming, or at least genuinely torn, and bouncing him back and forth between villain and reforming really doesn’t work after the first cycle or two.
11. The Thing
Ben Grimm probably would have to be somewhere in the top twenty if only for his relatively inexplicable and lasting appeal to every comic fan ever born. I think it was Mark Waid who said that the Thing is one of the simplest, least complicated characters in comics, and that this is precisely why he’s so beloved and works so well.
The problem is thinking of interesting things to do with him. They have pretty much done the whole “wanting to be human again” thing to death, to the point where it’s tacitly or openly acknowledged that he’s a big rocky guy because he wants to be.
It’s odd, now I come to think of it, but despite being a hardcore X-Men fanboy I’m having trouble thinking of a good argument for any of the characters I love to be on that list. Wolverine… what everyone else said. Top twenty, at best. I personally don’t get the appeal of Kitty Pryde. Magneto, thanks to Chris Claremont, was for a time probably the most compelling and well-characterised villain out there.
By the same token, although I think Hitman is the best thing Ennis has ever done, I really can’t argue for Tommy, Natt or Tiegel going ahead of Cassidy or the Punisher.
Oh, and this list is totally American. I’m sure there’s some hugely popular and influential Japanese comic-book characters out there (who’s this Akira guy I keep hearing about?) and, as a Brit, I’m irritated at the complete absence of Judge Dredd.
Prankster: Comic publishing as a whole was definitely languishing before Superman, and the vast assortment of superheroes that followed, rejuvenated the industry and allowed for other forms of comics (crime comics, horror comics, romance comics, et cetera) to find their profitability niche as publishers would experiment with subject matter while letting the capes and tights finance their experimentation. It’s not unfair at all to suggest the possibility that without Superman, no capes and tights to finance the other genres’ startup costs, and thus no comics as the medium collapsed.
Pat!: Waid’s manifesto isn’t available online so far as I know, but the entire thing - what he wrote to get the job on F4 - is reprinted in the first Waid/’Ringo F4 hardcover.
Wizard taking their long-time coverboy and giving him the top spot in an ALL-TIME GREATEST CHARACTERS list? Who’da thought? Anybody could’ve called that one.
I agree with you on the Goblin. Tossing an unconscious girl off a bridge was the only memorable thing he ever did. This moment–and his subsequent death by his own glider–had more of an impact than anything he ever did beforehand. He should’ve never been brought back from the dead.
And as a G.I. Joe fan, he do agree with you on both SnakeEyes and Cobra Commander. Even though I liked SS, his overexposure nearly killed the comic (remember those wonderful days when the book was called “SNAKE-EYES…featuring G.I.Joe”) and while Larry Hama did a good job making CC a better villian and giving him some depth (at least more death than the cartoon), it’s not enough to merit putting him on a list like this.
Where is Rex the Wonder Dog?
By the way, MGK: Before you continue on with the other parts of Wizard’s flawed G.O.A.T. list, are there any INEXCUSABLE EXCLUSIONS from the list that you want to bring up?
After reading the rest of the list I have to say that the whole thing feels like the Wizard staff just got together over beers and wrote down all the “cool” characters they thought of, in order. Then wrote little blurbs justifying their place on the list.
I’ll second the complaints at the absence of Dredd; if Marvelman (sorry, Miracleman) qualifies, then Dredd should too.
no real cause to disagree with anything you’ve said here, save one thing.
Wolvie’s favorite beer is Dos Equis. He drinks shitty mexican beer and smokes cheap cigars cause he can get away with it. Also, the artists probably like the two “X”s on the package.
Lobo and Deadpool make the top 200, but not Ambush Bug? Shenanigans!
CandidGamera: While I can’t speak for Lobo, if ANYONE deserves to be on this list it’s Wade. Deadpool went from a one note, Deathstroke rip-off to a man fighting for redeption under Kelly, fighting for respect with Simone and to become a hero under Nicieza and he did it with a kick to the face and a joke on his lips. Deadpool is the sole reason I started reading Marvel again. And I damn near wept when Cable and Deadpool was cencelled. He’s gone on a true hero’s journey and that alone is why he’s now my favorite comic book character and why he’s won the undying support of hundreds, if not thousands, of comic book fans. Though I get the feeling that Daniel Way is going to sorely test those limits.
Hmmm I don’t see Kurt Wagner yet. Nah I’m being biased. Nightcrawler will always be my boy
I have to say that the list lost all credibility with me when I noticed the conspicuous absence of Molly f’ing Hayes.
Lister : Deadpool is the bastard child of Deathstroke and Ambush Bug. Ambush Bug is the definitive fourth-wall-breaker.
MGK: Fair enough, though we’re getting into “what might have been” territory here. Given their history as a cheap “filler” medium (for instance, Marvel comics surviving to the 60s primarily because a larger publishing company needed material to keep their presses rolling 24 hours a day) and the popularity of newspaper comics of the time, I tend to think that they would have limped along long enough to find something else if superheroes hadn’t burst onto the scene…but obviously I’m speculating here.
I tend to be a big defender of the idea that there’s more to the medium than superheroes, and that people who chart comic history tend to focus on them a little too much (so you can imagine my problems with this list, and Wizard in general). So I guess I’m a bit of a contrarian on these matters.
Aquaman, dammit!…ok, I tried.
I might have thrown Kyle on there instead of Hal, but I am biased.
And I agree, Thunderbolts Osborn is actually scary. The Joker I never liked, though.
I must disagree with your assessment on Black Adam. The stuff in JSA featuring him has managed to turn me into a Black Adam fan, and I usually dislike anti-heroes. He felt…fleshed out to me in that run, and damn interesting.
Most of your other assessments I do agree with however.
Although I found your commentary really interesting, I’ve never read any comics besides like 10 issues of godzilla. (OH YEAH GODZILLA)
However, from my poor memory, I recall Venom being rediculously badass. Where is he? I don’t know about his human character, and I don’t really care that much, but at least based on the Ultimate Spider Man video game that came out a few years ago (the comic book animation one), he owns joker and goblin and whatnot.
Please don’t kill me for saying that. It’s probably my super-limited knowledge speaking. I totally recommend that game, BTW. You can tear people the fuck in HALF! OR EAT THEM! YOU CAN THROW A HUMMER AT A CHOPPER, for chrissake.
TBolts’ Osborne does nothing for me. Just another nutjob, and I’ll be thrilled when he’s back out of the book and it goes back to be about villains seeking redemption, instead of just about villains.
Much surprised to see Hawkeye there, but very happy. Even happier that they call him Hawkeye and don’t acknowledge this ninja idiocy Bendis has going on with him. It’s like he missed the entire point of why he became Goliath in the first place — so he’d be more useful to his team. Making him the worst hand-to-hand combatant on his own team (instead of the foremost archer in the world) is the exact opposite of what makes sense for the character. Of course, so does offing himself because his quiver was on fire.
dom:
Venom is no longer Venom. New Venom isn’t as awesome as Old Venom, but still has all the calories, so it’s just not worth it. Anti-Venom is an interesting marketing approach, but I’m sure it will go the same way as Mountain Dew Supernova.
You laugh, but Cobra Commander should be in the top fifty, possibly higher than he is. There is a lot of symbolism and intentional projection in the character, which is why I prefer the mirror mask to the hood: You look that fucker in the eye and see YOURSELF staring back at you and RIGHTLY SO.
He’s tarnished by an origin story tailored to make Snake Eyes that much more tragic (and Snake Eyes does have some excellent moments: his letter on war is partially sermonizing by Larry Hama, but it’s still pretty good), but Cobra Commander’s basic character concept pulls off “One Bad Day*” better than any Joker story ever did, and is so pure and blissful it’s almost elemental.
A used car salesman, about as ordinary and lowly as a U.S. citizen can get, suffers a really horrific tragedy, has a psychotic break, and goes on to build the best-trained, best-equipped and most comprehensive terrorist network on the planet. Cobra Commander is the ultimate perversion of the American Dream, which is really what he’s supposed to be. Below all the byzantine soap-opera drama in the Cobra High Command, beyond all the stuff with Snake-Eyes’ little sister and Cobra Commander’s brother and and and, is that concept:
You can achieve anything if you really want it badly enough. Even if what you want to do make the entire world suffer.
*”One bad day to turn an ordinary man into a complete psychopath, Some men just want to watch the world burn, etc.”
Re: Wolverine; this is a Wizard list, of course Wolverine is #1. And Conan was and is a literary character, but the Conan comics from the 70s/80s were really spectacular fantasy stuff, and the character translates so well to the comic book medium (which is appropriate, since Comic Books go hand in hand with the magz that Howard published the Conan stories in originally) that it really is a genuine perfect fit.
Also, Conan is awesome.
Marv’s probably the most painless Sin City character to put onto the list. He’s the penultimate male self-insert revenge fantasy character.
The thing that made it easier to accept Bucky was, at the time, I think folks weren’t threatened by Bucky’s return displacing a decent character. I could be wrong, but I don’t think at the time Brubaker brought Bucky back anyone was really aware that it would mean we’d lose Steve Rogers in the bargain, which sorta seems like the probably with bringing back that other Flash guy no one cares about except Silver Age enthusiasts with massive hard-ons for the halcyon past that never really existed on the printed page.
We had to go through a lot of shit to get to Ennis Punisher, and Ennis Punisher running over superheroes with a steamroller like a fucking Looney Tune should be enough to take the fucker off the list.
I want to say that the Watchmen and Preacher characters get too much hype, but . . . I can’t really be sure it’s not just my bias. I slogged through all of Preacher in one afternoon and evening, and same with Watchmen, and I just . . . can’t see the heart. I can accept Watchmen being on the list because, hey, back in the ’80s, it was all new and visionary (sort of like how James Joyce is regarded as an important author), but . . . fuck if I can enjoy that.
No Brainiac 5? I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: F@#% Wizard.
I don’t really mind Wolverine being in the top of the list. People fucking love him for a reason, though there hasn’t been a decent Wolverine story in a long while.
I totally agree with you about Cassidy being a better character than Jesse Custer. His arc–all of the alcoholic, lying, cheating, murdering ways–is the real redemption in Preacher.
Y’know who belongs on this list? Amanda Waller.
“Dr. Octopus is the Spider-Man villain with resonance. ”
Elaborate, por favor. I’m interested.
Even though I know in my heart Wizard sucks, their shitty list still ofends me.
I am okay with Conan being on the list because unlike Star Wars or Predator, the comics predate the movies. Howard wrote his stories, Camp rewrote them into a mess and then Roy Thomas adapted Conan into comic book success. The comic character of Conan is his own entity that people recognize even moved to another company. You could argue that the Dark Horse Conan series was less about adopting Howard’s version as much as it was merging Howard’s version with the comic version that’s been around for thirty years.
I think I have more of a problem seeing characters less then 15 years old in the top 50. I like Preacher and Y:The Last Man, but it is too early to say whether they have characters that can stand the test of time. On the other hand, Brainaic 5 has been around in one incarnation or another for what, 40 years?
There is no reason for any character from Y:The Dead Horse to be on that list. Just because they aren’t clad in spandex, doesn’t mean they’re not all one-trick ponies.
I guess all that critical acclaim and praise the book got was for it being a non superhero comic - nevermind that those have been coming out for years.
Does Hundred make this list? Because it’ll be criminal if he doesn’t.
As much as I generally dislike Wizard, their lists ramp my anger up to 11. Have you ever seen their list of the 100 best graphic novels ever? It promises “you won’t believe what’s number one!” What follows is a list of 99 superhero comics, topped by… MAUS. It’s such a token inclusion that I was angrier to see it on the list then I would have were it not included. And this is also the magazine that declared Hayden “my skin is orange” Panette the hottest women to EVER appear on television.
Any top 50 that doesn’t include Maggie, Hopey, Cerebus, Nexus or Usagi is shit.
…Not to mention Luba! And I guess Finder is a bit obscure but I’d like to see Jaeger break the top 100. Also, no love for non-English comics? Asterix and Tintin trump Wolverine — not to mention shitty Image comics from the ’80s — any day.
But it sounds like a boring sort of list anyway, which is why most of the time I just forget that Wizard exists.
Not that I would expect it from Wizard, but Nexus (one of my all-time favorite series) gets no love at all - I’d put Horatio, Sundra, Dave, Judah and Kreed all in my top 25 character list.
If you are expecting a “funny” Joker, then really YOU are missing the point of the character (as originally inteneded). Thats what ya call yer basic irony….
I thought Cobra Commander was a snake man from Cobra-La.
Wait a minute. Wizard is still being published? Oh my God, something is seriously wrong with the world.
Dude, there is so much good here. A lot of characterization nails hit on the head which more than I can say about the books that actually have said characters….
The thing about WOnder Woman is if she wasn’t the first superheroine then who would be?
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