A new feature, where I comment on good comments! To be featured whenever I feel like it, or am bored, or really whatever justification I invent and you will wholeheartedly accept.
Required Name Here, from yesterday’s Hillary post:
also, dude, youre kinda leaving out the part before and after these paragraphs, where she points out that women and blacks are the backbone of the party, and you cant disenfranchise that.
Except that “disenfranchising” involves the invalidation of votes, which, bleating to the contrary, hasn’t happened. Sometimes, your candidate loses. That’s not “disenfranchisement.” Before I go any further on this, I also want to reference Dan Solomon, also from the same post:
For this election to turn out well, the party needs to unify. You don’t get that by saying unify now, assholes to Clinton supporters. They have to feel welcome in the Obama campaign, and they have to stop seeing Obama supporters as their enemy. We have to let this shit go.
This is an entirely fair comment, but honestly: the problem isn’t Obama supporters at this point, and it’s silly to pretend otherwise. You know how I know this? Because every political blog of note has asked the same question already to Hillary supporters. That question is, “well, what do you want Obama, as the presumptive nominee, to do for you?” And the answer from Hillary supporters is always the same: they want her to be the nominee and presumably the President. Fine and dandy that they do, but they can’t get that, and everybody knows it.
Seriously, it is time for Hillary supporters to explain what they want beyond Hillary as president, in hard policy terms. Of course, the problem is that most of what they want in policy terms, Obama already provides, and so this election has always been about demographics and personality appeal.
Now, then… the top 50 characters list from earlier today what I did:
Brandawg: Maybe you could indulge me by explaining Scrooge McDuck.
Scrooge McDuck is probably one of the greatest pulp-adventurer comic heroes of all time. Once you get past the “talking duck” part, you’ve got a brilliantly realized adventurer; famously miserly, of course, but an adventurer, explorer, taskmaster, family man (only having rediscovered the joys of family late in life), notorious braggart, civic-minded individual and closet sentimentalist.
Seriously: Carl Barks’ Scrooge comics are simply some of the best work ever done in the medium. They’re accessible to all ages without being simplistic or patronizing to kids. If you haven’t read them, you should.
John Seavey: Darkseid…I think you misspelled “Thanos” there. Darkseid is poetic, but very one-note. He’s evil for evil’s sake, just grinding endless darkness and the defeat of the human soul.
I disagree. You’re going with the simplistic analysis of Darkseid, which is understandable because a lot of writers write shitty Darkseid (see: Loeb, Jeph). But I go with Marc Singer on this:
Thanos lays bare its psychosexual death drive, and brilliantly, but Darkseid is a more mature, more psychologically stable, and therefore far more threatening figure: imagine a Hitler who’s both physically intimidating and not the slightest bit insane. Darkseid is what Hitler wanted to be, the visions he sold to himself in his sleep made real. A walking dream, or nightmare, of total control.
Thanos is more approachable as a character, precisely because he questions himself – a very human trait. But Darkseid is comfortable with his own evil, down to the bone. And that’s why Darkseid is scarier and more interesting; because he’s more alien.
itbox: I don’t agree with V’s inclusion on the list.
It was a tough call between Evey and V, but ultimately I went with V precisely because V’s motivations are more enigmatic; he’s not a cipher, as you say, but rather a riddle nobody’s cracked yet.
CandidGamera: Deadpool, again, and no Ambush Bug.\
Just because Ambush Bug broke the fourth wall before Wade doesn’t make him a better character. Ambush Bug is a walking punchline; Deadpool is fully realized.
Multiple people, but WillF: No Judge Dredd?
Wanted to find room for him, along with Captain Marvel, Lucifer, Thorn, Usagi Yojimbo, Luke Cage, Hunter Rose and half the cast of Maison Ikkoku, but I just couldn’t find the space. (I understand why Wizard combined Maggie and Hopey from Love and Rockets into one entry on their list, albeit probably for different reasons than they did.) Let’s just say they’d all make top 60, probably, but not top 50. I wouldn’t include Julian Hundred yet, and I wouldn’t include Nexus at all (always found it wildly overrated).
Finally, Dan Brown wanted to know about Dr. Octopus being the best Spidey villain. Doc Ock is the best Spidey villain because he’s Peter Parker’s opposite number: a scientist who suffered an accident which gave him great power, which he decided to use entirely for his own gain. I wouldn’t include him on a top characters list per se, but he’s better than the fucking Green Gobshite.
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I’ve got to question the Dr. Octopus logic. I agree that his background makes a great ‘reverse-peter’, but has he ever been in a really good story?
Darkseid would scoff at Thanos for having been so obsessively in-love with Death, because that adoration made Thanos a slave to Death–where Darkseid serves no one but Darkseid.
Also, why no Vandal Savage?
I want to know which Captain Marvel your talking about. I assume DC, but I want to be sure.
Darkseid also has the benefit of being voiced by Michael Ironside.
I’ve got to question the Dr. Octopus logic. I agree that his background makes a great ‘reverse-peter’, but has he ever been in a really good story?
The one I always cite is from an annual, where Ock breaks out of prison unexpectedly, robs a blood bank and a shipment of radioactive isotopes, and we intersperse scenes of Spiderman hunting him down with flashbacks of Ock as a child.
It’s a very, very well-done story about what, exactly, Ock is planning to do with what he’s stolen, and why. And it’s perfectly in keeping with his megalomania, all along.
I’m still wondering at Akane Tendo. Ranma was a much more entertaining character with lasting appeal.
He was the first jerk-ass character that I really liked, mostly because his adventures were so far out there (and there were enough spectators around to point out how strange it all was, even after they got used to certain aspects of that life) and even at his most angsty there were still two or three jokes per page to dispell that atmosphere.
I dunno man, the guy wants to topple the fascist state and create anarchy. That’s quite straightforward. You could argue all day about whether there is a death wish there as well, but I don’t see that there is much going on behind the mask. Compare Rorschach who would have also been just an enigmatic “badass” without his demasking at the end of Fearful Symetry.
Evey, Finch and Mr. Susan speculate about V’s motivations and so does the reader, but ultimately he’s more important to the reader in how he effects the really rounded characters in the book than in any intrinsic qualities of himself. Enigma is perhaps the better word than cipher, but I don’t believe that there is a solution to the riddle, and a riddle without a solution is just a deliberate head fuck.
I would have put Finch in V’s place – because if we’re being perfectly honest with ourselves he’s probably what most of us would turn out like under a fascist regime and he choses to liberate himself, rather than needing to be bullied into it by V.
Not that this is a criticism of V for Vendetta you understand. The book wouldn’t have been nearly as brilliant if we’d have had anymore humanisation of V than we got. This is why the film wasn’t nearly as good, when Hugo V says that he loves Evey we know what he means, when comic V says he loves Evey it’s anyone’s guess as to whether he means romantically, paternally or just because she’s becoming a mirror of him.
Agree 100% on Darkseid, Scrooge McDuck and Deadpool though. Green Goblin has a cool gimmick with the glider and the pumpkin bombs but I think his biggest fanboy would struggle to argue he wasn’t Dr. Luthor and Mr. Joker.
You find Nexus wildly overrated? That’s it, we’re not friends any more.
Of course, to be fair, if I made a list like this myself, I would have had to make the same comment about Transmet and why Spider Jerusalem isn’t on my list.
I guess I should through out a nomination for Richie Rich if only because he was my first introduction to comics (well Richie Rich and G.I. Combat.. nice mix huh)
Deadpool to me always seemed like a one trick pony.. I like him as a character though so I can’t argue the point.
I guess Scrooge would be a better choice than someone like Super Goof.. or better, the Phantom Blot who I think is the one of the best comic villans ever
has Ock ever been in a really good story?
Doctor Octopus: Year One.
Owes a debt to that Ron Lim story John mentions, sure, but is really really really quite good.
//\Oo/\\
Btw, MGK…what do you think of this list:
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/04/18/the-top-100-comic-book-runs-master-list/
And what’re your top runs?
You make a good point, re: Hillary’s supporters, but I think perhaps you miss how personal this campaign is for them. Every time another prominent blogger or Obama surrogate issues another attack on Clinton- and it happens 3-4 times a day, especially if you look at a site like AmericaBlog or something- they take it personally. And while there’s a part of me that thinks they need to grow up and accept that their candidate lost a long time ago, I can’t say that I wouldn’t be equally frustrated and feel equally alienated if the circumstances were reversed. Because it does no good to keep attacking Clinton once she’s lost; it just creates a redundant loop, in which Clinton says something questionable, Obama supporters attack her, Clinton supporters get offended, and the whole thing remains acrimonious.
Now, we can’t make Clinton stop saying questionable things. But since she’s not going to be the nominee and Obama is, we don’t really need her to do that. We -can- control whether or not we further alienate her supporters by letting even the desperate nonsense coming from her campaign make us angry enough to attack her. Since that doesn’t benefit us anymore (unlike, say, when she had a shot at swinging enough superdelegates and her ‘kitchen sink’ strategy was a threat), the only thing that comes of it is pissed off Clinton supporters. Because on top of everything else, they’re a very passionate group who just lost a close race, and that sucks for them. Arguing that she’s stupid and should have quit months ago doesn’t bring them over to our side. What I really mean to say is that, as the winning team, we have the power to end the fight. Let them mourn the death of this particular dream without reminding them over and over that we hate their candidate, and they’ll come around. They have to.
–d
If you need any, I have every issue of Rex the Wonder Dog’s original run. I also have his Secret Origin and “Whatever Happened to Rex the Wonder Dog?” in which he becomes functionally immortal.
I’m surprised that anyone would even question the presence of Scrooge McDuck on an all-time greatest list. If anything, he should be in the top 10 in my book!
I get what you’re saying about Darkseid; my only quibble would be that the very fact that he’s comfortable with his own evil makes him a character who can’t progress in any meaningful fashion, and (to me) those are always less interesting than characters that do. Darkseid is never going to be anything other than what he is right now, whereas Thanos constantly surprises me.
I’m not saying Darkseid isn’t a good character…just that he probably slips below “Top 50” for me.
Deadpool to me always seemed like a one trick pony.
Then you haven’t read him as written by Joe Kelly.
Not just Barks on Scrooge; the Don Rosa stories are also excellent (and I’m something of heretic for prefering them over Barks, certainly in Rosa’s own eyes, but he’s got the advantages of building on the great foundation from Barks and I think more consciously writing stories with appeal to adults as well as kids). I highly recommend Rosa’s Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck, where he takes pretty much every mention by Barks of something in Scrooge’s past and puts it all together. There’s a companion volume with additional set in the past stories as well. But it’s all excellently done; I’m particularly fond of the two Scrooge / Teddy Roosevelt team-ups.
I think TAO belongs somewhere in the top 60-70, maybe higher.
Kudos to John. I think the Dr. Octopus blood bank heist story is one of the triumphs of Spider-Man (granted, I’ve only read maybe 300 single issues). The background story really drives home the “opposite of Peter” trope that MGK mentioned, and the bitter obituary writer is a great framing device.
That story wasn’t in an annual, by the way, it was Spider Man Unlimited #2 or #3.
Most of the reasons for Doc Ock being Spidey’s greatest villain have already been listed, but I’d like to throw out one more. Doc Ock was the first villain to ever truly beat Spider-Man. Spidey eventually took him down, but his first confrontation with Ock was an unqualified loss, and it shook him to the core.
While I love Ock a great deal-Sinister Six and Master Planner storylines rate as, IMO, some of the best ‘classic Spidey’ ever, The classic Goblin is really unbeatable for just how much and how deeply he hurt Pete in issue 121…
Darkseid stopped being interesting to me when I realized just how much power they’ve given his omega beam over the years. At this point, I’m wondering why his Omega energy hasn’t gained its own sentience and left Darkseid blind and visionless.
wow, good call on the whole “what else BESIDES hillary for pres?” and the response of “hillary for pres!” i didnt realize that really was their entire platform. it is all personality, yes. in reality, didnt mean disenfranchise, but you finished it in the solomon one.
and what dan solomon said a couple comments above mine.
Thinking about Scrooge, I recall an episode of DuckTales where he quested for a folio of lost plays written by an Shakespeare equivalent (“Drakespeare?”) because one of them was rumored to be “MacDuck” and he was convinced it was a story written about one of his ancestors. He went to a ton of trouble, teamed up with/encountered a troupe of actors, and eventually found the plays.
And then he saw the acting troupe perform MacDuck, and was aghast when he realized that the titular character, who he believed was based on not just his ancestor but his family’s progenitor, was not just a skinflint, but a cheat and a crook.
I can’t remember how it resolves, but I want to say the actors explained that it was just a story, just a name–and that if Drakespeare had known Scrooge the play would’ve been much, much different. I thought it was pretty cool, when I was a kid.
There was also one where Scrooge became an out and out superhero using a nifty purple costume and a cane that could do some neat tricks. That one was pretty cool too.
…Following up one long-winded post with another post. Go me.
The thing about Darkseid is, as Jack Kirby concieved of him, he is a god. The New God of Evil. The Great Darkness. One of my personal favorites is from “Rock of Ages,” where he’s referred to as “The Rock and The Chain and The Lightning.” Of course, in “Rock of Ages” he was also killed by Connor Hawke and Ray Palmer, which I didn’t like so much, even though I like both of those characters quite a bit.
He hasn’t been overpowered. More often he’s been DEPOWERED by writers who want his gravitas but need him to lose, or just don’t get it, or both (this happened a lot during the 90s). The Omega Effect is how Darkseid’s divine power expresses itself, so when he radically changes somebody, kills or resurrects them, or just hurts the holy hell out of them, it’s not a power added in–it’s something he could do from day one. It had its limits, of course–he doesn’t have real omnipotence or omniscience; that’s why he lusted after the Anti-Life Equation for so long. There’s a difference between being a god and being God.
One thing Darkseid is noted for doing very, very often is killing off his underlings when they irritate him and resurrecting them when he needs them, with full knowledge of the experience of being bitched and full awareness that this is Just The Way Things Are Because He’s Darkseid–and YOU AREN’T.
There’s all sorts of alternate stuff in there depending on who’s writing him. In the X-Men/Titans crossover from the 80s Darkseid noted that children are instinctively aware of his presence, while adults tend to unconsciously edit him out of their perceptions.
“Adults deny me, but children know me for what I am.” That’s the line. Implying, of course, that Darkseid is the thing in the dark that humans are instinctively afraid of, the thing that was so terrifying they harnessed fire to ward it off–which is either lame or really cool depending on who you are and whether or not you’ve had your coffee.
Ultimately, as a concept, Darkseid is meant to be an elemental, primordial evil – a Great Enemy. A lot of writers have failed to grasp this and fallen woefully short of the mark–hell, Peter David Did Not Get It–Grant Morrison seems to, but Grant Morrison needs to drop acid to grasp ideas Jack Kirby conjured up on reflex.
It makes him less knowable than Thanos, and certainly less empathatic; but all the more scary for his eloquence and wit. An ultimate evil with both a grasp of the Big Picture and an eye for detail. I think Lovecraft would’ve looked at the Darkseid character concept and rethought all the tentacles and the rising from the seas. But that’s just me.
Feh. Ambush Bug is an archetypical character who stands, by himself, in contrast to the entire stable of every comic book superhero ever. He’s the iconoclast. Wade just likes Bea Arthur.
“While I love Ock a great deal-Sinister Six and Master Planner storylines rate as, IMO, some of the best ‘classic Spidey’ ever, The classic Goblin is really unbeatable for just how much and how deeply he hurt Pete in issue 121…”
Yes and no. It’s true that Norman hurt Peter in a way that nobody had since the mugger, but that’s pretty much the ONLY thing he did prior to the “OH! He’s really still alive and magically responsible for the Clone Saga!” retcon.
Until recent years, Otto Octavius has been more of a thorn in Peter’s side than Norman Osborn could ever dream of. MGK is absolutely correct when he says that Otto, not Norman, is the dark mirror.
Cogent political discussion and Scrooge McDuck — this post has everything.
FWIW, my favorite Scrooge McDuck issue was when he discovered that the royal land grant for his vault predated American independence, so he declared sovereignty and demanded that the government return umpteen-bazillion dollars in illegitimately-paid taxes.
Then the town cut off his electricity and police protection because they weren’t authorized to deal with foreign nations, and so the Beagle Boys just walked in, took over, and declared themselves dictators. Donald wanted to mount a coup, but Scrooge decided to give in and rejoin the union.
That was the best comic ever. Ever.
See, I would have put in Dredd. What I find problematic with this list is the example of Yorrick AND 355, Rorschach AND the Comedian, Or Tulip AND Cassidy. They come from great, but self contained, stories. Where Hawkeye, Luthor, Spiderman, etc. are going to remain interesting wherever they are. Which is why I would have Nightwing here. Brilliant call on Scrooge McDuck. I picked up a couple… guess they must have been reprints or something, for my son a few years back. I went back into his comic pile and fished it out to read one after I read your explanation. Brilliant.
Doctor Octopus vs. Green Goblin? You gotta be kidding!
Norman Osborn was a fuck-up with delusions of grandeur. Otto Octavius was a respected scientist.
Norman Osborn ran a business which was failing before (and possibly) after his exposure to the Goblin serum. Otto Octavius almost took over New York City, then gained a pair of unbreakable tentacles.
Norman Osborn had two insanely ineffectual personalities. Otto Octavius, excluding his arachnophobia phase, has always been depicted as being as calm as a midnight breeze.
Norman Osborn, killed with his own glider. Otto Octavius, killed _someone else_ with his malfunctioning arms.
Bottom line, Norman Osborn’s current status in the Marvel Universe is a result of some sort of twisted, “Spider-Man needs his own Lex Luthor. Who can we get?”, mandate. Pre-death, Osborn was a failure as a businessman (The fucking _Molten Man_ ran Oscorp with more skill than he did), a father (“Oh great, my son overdosed on drugs! Maybe I should knock up one of his distaff classmates from his first year of highschool!”, and a scientist (A perfume designer {trained in biochemistry, but still…} was the first person to produce a Goblin serum that _didn’t_ result in flat out insanity). And Doc Ock? He’s just the guy who’s held Spider-Man’s life in his hands on multiple occasions, has killed more people _accidentally_ than GG has killed with intent, and he was banging Aunt May for the sheer pleasure of knowing that Peter couldn’t do anything about it without spilling his secret.