I’m sick

Remember kids! They’re both heroes!

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Now, more than ever, the Sentry is emblematic of everything wrong about Marvel comics.

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Joe Quesada: Remember, kids, smoking is bad for you!

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I’m currently reading The Boys, so I’m getting a kick out of your *END TRANSMISSION*

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I beg to differ: Siege #2 was awesome. Even that scene was perfect: it’s the only moment as gruesome as that in the book, but it’s also an important beat in the story – it underlines the viciouness of Osborn’s invasion force (and specifically the threat that the Sentry presents, which is also referenced in the extra material at the end of the book). This moment is a critical gut-punch in the context of the ongoing battle, and it’s followed by the reactions of most major players who witnessed it (all perfectly illustrated by Oliver Coipel). This issue’s final scene suggests that next issue we will see the long-anticipated Thor x Sentry showdown, and I can’t wait. Anyone who claims that Bendis can’t write action-oriented stories should read this comic to see him doing exactly that, and doing it well.

The tension is rising, Captain America (the original!) and the Avengers are entering the fray, and there are several “F%$K YEAH!” moments through the story – overall, so far this is the best event-comic that Marvel has published in years.

And I’m frankly tired of the “oh, this isn’t suitable for young children” complaints. Let’s be honest: first, that ship has sailed LONG ago – the majority of the audience for mainstream Marvel comics is NOT composed of kids, and hasn’t been for a looooong time now. And second, like it or not today’s kids are not the kids of twenty years ago – with all the violent videogames and movies that they’re currently exposed to, they actually LIKE this over-the-top stuff. I have a 6-year-old godson who reacts to brutal scenes like this by excitedly saying “WHOA, WICKED! THIS IS AWESOME!”

Just my two cents.

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BREAKING NEWS: Geoff Johns Defects to Marvel

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I’m not reading Siege. Who did Sentry just tear in half?

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It was Ares, so y’know, he’ll get better.

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Are there any superhero comics writers left who actually like superheroes? It seems like everywhere I look, writers are trying to one-up one another in showing who can be the most ruthless, power-mad, unlikable jerk. I miss the days when I could like a superhero as a person, and not just because they win all their fights or get away with things I never could.

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I know nothing about comics, but feel better MGK!

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“There’s no reason why Siege would be inaccessible to people under 18. People under 18 play games like Grand Theft Auto, which is far worse than Siege.”

Never seen intestines or spines in GTA. For a good selection of giblets you need Fallout 3- which is also rated M for Mature, meaning it’s for games 17 and up. Okay, I guess I was off by a year.

“Like it or not, people under 18 probably enjoy this stuff more than many middle-aged readers who miss the Good Ol’ Days…”

Except they don’t. They’re not reading them. That’s the point. The average of the comic book reader is in the mid-to-late 20s.

“‘People under 18’ probably prefer books like Siege over books like Marvel Adventures, the audience for which is composed of very young kids + nostalgic adults.”

Okay, here it is one last time: people under 18 are not reading comics. They’re getting their superheroes from the movies and cartoons that still have that unhealthy way of approaching violence where I don’t have to look at anybody’s frigging spleen.

Marvel and DC are both hemorrhaging readers and not replacing them, and this is bad news. There are about ten times more people interested in these characters than either company is willing or able to attract with their current output, and that is worse news.

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I’m thinking Marvel comics are probably some of the most brutal kid-accessible things that are out there, actually.

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…and no one’s noticed the &@*% censored swearing that precedes the gibleting?

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The problem here isn’t that the Sentry is ripping Ares(?) in half. Nor, I fear, can it be explained away by ‘well, kids don’t read comics anyway’. Consider instead this to be emblematic of a broader trend, where we now need to wade through a river of blood in order to maintain the interests of existing fans, while running the risk of alienating potential new fans.

I’m not saying that graphic violence doesn’t have its place in graphic novels – quite the opposite. But it sort of reminds me of what one of my elementary school teachers taught me about cursewords – they’re more effective if you don’t use them all the time. I can go back and read the death of Gwen Stacy and still be mildly shocked at the power of the moment that her neck breaks, because frankly, that wasn’t something people saw coming. Nowadays, with us wading through an age of crises where both companies decide to thin the herd of c-lists by killing them whenever they want to look edgy, I have some doubts that moment would have anywhere near the same effect.

I suppose what it comes down to is what you suppose people are looking for in a comic book character. I’m not suggesting that we return to the silver-age of comics – heavens no – but as someone above said, ‘it’s just Ares. He’ll be back later.’ You’re wasting someone being torn in half on a character for whom it ultimately doesn’t matter? _THAT_ is the creeping problem that this emblemizes.

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what’s the tally on cities in the US that DC has eradicated

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I think that this is way tamer than having Green Lantern’s girlfriend stuffed into a refrigerator. Plus it’s only one panel, not the end of decency in comics as we know it.

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Skychrono : I buy Incredible Herc, Guardians of the Galaxy, and Fantastic Four.

The Sentry started out as an enormous retcon. The kind that comics get shit for all the time. Strike One. He’s revealed as an emo nutcase paralyzed by his own power – the very exemplar of the poor Marvel “woe is me, I’m a superhero” trope. And the increasingly prevalent hero/villain ambiguity in the Marvel Universe – that picture is worth a thousand words.

“What If Superman Were a Psychotic Emo Douchebag?” is exactly the kind of thing I expect from Marvel these days, and it’s exactly what I don’t want to read.

Except, y’know, when it’s done by Mark Waid over in Irredeemable.

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It’s almost impossible to even really talk about things like this when America’s endlessly confused strain of prudery has conflated “mature” content with juvenile shit like this.

…and no one’s noticed the &@*% censored swearing that precedes the gibleting?

Everything that could possibly be said, this says.

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(slaps two penny’s on the table)

First off, quit talking about the division between ‘adults’ and ‘kids’ being 18. At the age of 16 we entrust kids to drive on their own, so let’s assume we can trust them to see graphical representations of violence without it psychologically damaging them. Because that is what this is ultimately about. Censorship in video games, movies and more importantly comic books ultimately is about protecting developing mind and attitudes from harmful and potentially damaging influences.

Would children find a super hero fight with intense gore and brutal fights entertaining? Sure.

Would young adults get the over-laying story of Siege? Perhaps.

But would either group understand that at it’s core, Siege is an event that is about an unbalanced individual given power by a legitimate government and his abuse of that power, challenged by individuals who have put morality about the word of law? Perhaps not.

Perhaps not. That is where the line of Siege borders. Is the Sentry’s murder of his former teammate and supposed friend Ares without purpose? No. It’s designed to show that the Sentry himself is not only immensely powerful, but also dangerously unbalanced… we have been shown that his powers essentially come from a drug, a drug he is addicted to. This addiction and the influences of Osborn have stripped away the humanity and morality of what was once believed to be a shining beacon of heroism. The Sentry’s brutal murder of Ares is not purposeless violence, but the crowning moment showing us how far an individual has fallen.

For lack of a better term, this is equivalent to showing the Sentry sucking dick in an alley for his next hit. Can you tell your audience that without being graphic? Yes, but in a medium that blends the written word with visual images, is it not far more powerful to show it?

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“Man, Hammerheart…a six-year old kid who thinks the above is awesome?”

I wouldn’t be surprised, as at that age the understanding of the totality of what it would be like is pretty limited.

“What did he think was awesome when he was four?”

When my nephew was about that age he has my mom tape a science special about mummified humans. Not just the wrapped Egyptian ones, but also bog bodies, and other unintentionally mummified bodies. The only one that I thought would be too much for him was a mummified infant with gaping empty eye sockets, from the Tarim Basin in China.

(http://www.flickr.com/photos/centralasiatraveler/2199836329/)

Little kids often don’t mind a little gore or being scared. (Maybe not filmed gore, but I think they’re okay with drawn gore which isn’t as realistic.)

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Y’know, generally speaking, I’m against the darkification of superhero comics, and opposed to gratuitous gore.

That said — this was, hoenstly, NOT a case of GRATUITOUS gore. EXTREME, yes, but it was (as has been pointed out) an isolated incident in this issue — in this SERIES, thus far, and was played as a Major And Significant Moment, with horrified reactions from the parties on both sides.

This is almost certainly the Sentry’s moral Event Horizon, and I’m hoping that part of the upcoming “Heroic Age” is the elimination of that character from the Marvel Universe.

THAT said … when I turned the page and saw that scene, the three words that popped into my head were … “HEY KIDS! COMICS!”

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The Olympians have a revolving door in the afterlife, so Ares will be back.

I’ve never liked Mustard Boy. In fact, I hate him. Hate’s not strong enough for it either.

He’s a rabid animal that needs to be put to sleep.

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there is killing someone
and there is KILLING someone

Ares was dead as soon as he went for Norman, the method and execution of his death however is where this goes from simple murder to Shock Gore and Awe and it comes off as Bendis trying to keep up with the recent Gore on the DC side of things

and possibly using it to show stark contrast to what is coming after Siege

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Evan I think you misunderstood some point. The dismembering of Ares was just the last step of the fall of Sentry. in fact IS a shocking event. In Wildsotrm univers? At some point was everyday occurence. Same in most of image universe. Indie comiccs often engae in the most depreaved and unusual way to damag ehuman body, same in vertigo comics. So ther eis normal. In MU 616 this event is so HARSH that caused lot of shock , both in the comic and in internet.
Oh extra note. Would have been bette rif Sentry, thrown him in the sun? Stabbed him? Used a giant hammer to sent him into coma? Behead him? Punch him very strongly partly off screeen wtth a big crunch, or used silhouettes to show the scene. Hey perhaps if he shot him like punisher people would have loved it, as it would have been a Clean way to kill him. The fact tha there are way to kill people in fiction more accpetalbe or “nobles” than other (swords I’m talking about you), is quite stupide and sincerely extremely wrong.

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Alluvion: I’ll agree with Baron above you, and say that you’re just splitting hairs.

I too am a “reader” and I agree with what most people said above – that the face that it DID happen this way, a way that’d be more readily accepted in The Boys, but in a big 616 event, was a Significant Moment for me. BECAUSE this time it’s 616, it’s a shock.

If Ares died off screen it wouldn’t be the same. This was a Big Thing, at least to many readers – just because you disagree, doesn’t mean that The Reader was worse off because of all this.

To everyone that hates Sentry: he’s more than a retcon, he’s an interesting character that Bendis put in that was explored in a number of ways, but was ultimately meant to end up like this all along.

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I’m 15 and I read this issue.

So yeah. Kids, comics, etc.

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“BECAUSE this time it’s 616, it’s a shock.”

Doesn’t that damage 616, though? It means that it’s the same R-rated crapsack world. The two big mainstream comics universes have- in theory- a certain idealism and bigger-than-life feeling that ultrareal gore kind of undermines.

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But they’re not saving it up. This is happening all over the place. DC and Marvel are totally losing sight of the border between traditional superhero action and, well, DAWN OF THE DEAD.

I love DAWN OF THE DEAD. But it’s not a superhero story.

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When our escapist entertainment has something like this offerred as an ‘AW COOL’ moment, then escapist entertainment is clearly FUBAR. So glad I’m not getting involved in this crap. Wake me up when superheroes start fighting supervillains and being actually heroic for a change.

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Speaking as someone who does enjoy a lot of gory movies, I can’t stand to see comics emulate that in narratives that don’t accommodate it. The Marvel 616 Universe, even though it was emo before emo was emo, is not built to accommodate this level of bloodletting (even less so the DC Universe, but that’s another post).

What the writers have forgotten is that a gory movie like say, I don’t know, Ichi the Killer (to name one they might very well enjoy), is a new world that is forced to establish ITS OWN UNIQUE RULES in its narrative. The basic rules of Marvel 616 or the DC Universe were established long ago, and although they can be tweaked, the necessities of branding, merchandising, and basic story logic prevent them from straining too far against what the years have canonized as the basic aesthetics of those universes.

Here’s the most important truth: When these universes have been established to the general public in other media as defined by a particular aesthetic, then contradicting that in the comics is a bad financial and creative decision, as long as the defined aesthetic is still making money. The most successful Marvel movies have established the Marvel Universe to the general public as a high-gloss, energetic world full of colorful characters who suffer realistic emotional turmoil over the ethical issues involved in using their own powers (natural or technological), all set against the backdrop of a society that’s not far removed from our own. If this sounds familiar at all, it’s because THIS IS THE MARVEL UNIVERSE. The movies have been remarkably faithful to the basic principles of this universe, and moving the comics elsewhere when those movies make hundreds of millions is short-sighted.

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If you go back and read the original Sentry miniseries, it’s clear he’s the most shameless Mary Sue character ever to make it past the editors into a mainstream Marvel/DC comic. “Look at me! I’m a Marvel Superhero and I got to go on adventures with all my favorite characters Spiderman, the Avengers, the Fantastic Four, and they all think I’m awesome and I’m their best bud, and I’m so powerful I win every battle, and even the Hulk calms down and is happy when I’m around! (Oh, and my nemesis is so evil, it’s the one thing the Hulk is scared of!!!)

Secondly, he just really doesn’t fit in the Marvel Universe. He has the power of “A Million Exploding Suns”, but Galactus is powered by eating planets. He makes Thor seem much less awesome and infringes on the Hulk’s “Strongest One There Is” shtick. He supposedly has a computer system that helps him instantly race to wherever he’s needed the most, which means that any time you read a Marvel comic and the Sentry doesn’t swoop in to save the day, you can be sure that the story you’re reading is at most the second gravest danger the world faces at that moment.

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Urthman: I gather you missed the last issue of Dark Avengers, where Bendis goes right into deconstructing completely who the Sentry is? Because it turns out he was a weak-willed drug-addict all along, who was shunting his massive psychological issues aside into a second personality, the Void. And he is bat-shit insane now, to boot.

As for Siege #2, personally I think that ultra-gore moment was there to mark the end of the “dark” period of Marvel comics. It was the moral event horizon for the Sentry, and he will be gone for goodafter this series ends.

As such, it was pretty fitting, because while the last years did not have such scenes, they were a damn sight darker than I liked. Although it was very interesting to see how the heroes handled such adversity. I am quite generally disappointed in the Dark Avengers title, though, since the protagonists in there stayed just the same psychos they were in the beginning ( excluding Noh-Varr und Ares, who weren’t insane to begin with ).

I think the gore *was* over the top and probably a bad decision to render Ares “death” in that way, but it definitely isn’t the proof of the death of the comics industry, as some are portraying it. I find a typical Garth Ennis comic to be much more morally disturbing.

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Someone brought up the Superhero movies “someone goes from the Iron Man or Spider-Man movies to this its a bit shocking and that is way too much gore” . Do you mean the same superhero movies that have the rule of making the villain die an horrible death at the end of the movie(mos tof the time it is). Seriously I can make a list of very nasty deaths in movie(from the firs tbatman movie where Joker/Jack Nicholson is thrown from a skyscraper without much remorse).
I think here the problem seem to be NOT the death, because if we remove death from action comics is like watching Rambo cartoon(abysmal…), but more the gore of it. MAINSTREAM Super heroes Comic had some restrain to show blood and guts, preferring other, equally horrible if one think about, way to die. Probably no one would have raised an eyebrow if Sentry just used energy blast to turn Are sin ashes, or thrown him in the sun, or chocked him to death, or stabbed with a sword(Wolverin essentially main trick, deconstructed in the book “Soon I’ll be invincible” when the main chracter point how retractable blades are not a very heroic power as they can be used only for killing or mutilating people), or broke his neck, or spine(another favored of many fans, beheading wroooong, neck breacking heroic!), also off screen anything can go, and if we got the written detail later is even better(including the always favored RAPE- Rape is copyright of Doctor Light.) Boys if we love it off screen. I think the in the end the problem eveyrbody has her eis witht he blood. People do not like to think that their heroes do have organs and blood running into them, at least not red blood(green blood is ok, thats why is so fun killing zombies and aliens.) If look inhuman is always better. Create muhc detachment so we don’t have to feel sorry or being shcked by its death, is an “it”. Same reason not many poeple like to make a trip to slaughterhouses and don’t like to think about where meat comes(“because cow’s cub don’t sound too right”). To this we should add also the nature of the hero, we expect such slaughter by dark heroes(like wolverine or Deadpool) not a superman wannabe(by the way the superhero comic book universe is OVERFILLED with supermen wananbees , and the superman gone bad is veyr old trick/idea Irredeemable is just the last of it), So My point is STOP MAKING TWO WEIGHT AND TWO MEASURES. sure is very gorey, but is JUST ONE FUCKING SCENE at the end of very tough battle. Ares was going to die, they choose the most brutal way, for shock value, and considering how much we are talking about it, worked fine.

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“I gather you missed the last issue of Dark Avengers, where Bendis goes right into deconstructing completely who the Sentry is? Because it turns out he was a weak-willed drug-addict all along, who was shunting his massive psychological issues aside into a second personality, the Void. And he is bat-shit insane now, to boot”

So in other words EXACTLY THE SAME WAY HE’S BEEN SINCE DAY ONE?! Christ, are they really still “revealing” this shit?

Also, Baron of Chaos: sorry, not buying it so far.

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I took a look to see what this was about.

It is grotesque and purile.

And also? Heimdall talks like goddam Mary Jane. “I am saying this to you…” I swear, if you removed the amount of times Bendis has his character’s mention that they’re about to say something, you’d have three words to a goddamn page.

What’s most amazing is that Ares and Sentry, two of Marvel’s best new characters in what… 10 years? Both from minis, both damaged by Bendis when he brought them back, and now fully destroyed in the same shitty splash page.

At least Sentry got that cute li’l “Age of Sentry” mini a while back.

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Zenrage: The Thor vs the Vikings mini was a MAX title.

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Does anyone else find it hysterical, that they showed all of Ares’ organs exploding in blood all over the page… but they BLEEPED OUT THE SWEAR WORD?

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Stupid soccer moms and old fogeys!

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Hey Fred your description mad eme think about “Akira” movie for some reason….hey is not tha tSentry going to become Tetsuo eh? No because I puzzle who would be Kaneda at that point.

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Let’s be honest here, if this was a fight scene in Invincible, most of the people complaining would just be jerking off about how awesome Robert Kirkman is.

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Hey, don’t worry MGK, this was rated T+, so as long as there was a parent present any 13 year old could enjoy this.
Because we all know as long as there’s a rating, it’s all cool.

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Oh you poor, naive comics fans… do you really believe that this and Blackest Night are really going to be the end of the GRIMDARK and gore that has so integrated itself into comics over the last decade? With all the same writers and editors in place?

Really?

Man, I can’t wait to see how much you love the ceaseless exploding, human shaped blood sacks that will so characterize Brightest Day and The Heroic Age by this time next year, or the year after.

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It could be worse, it could be called “Dark Sentry.”

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See Marvel just HAD to show the Sentry graphically ripping somebody in half, because if they hadn’t, they couldn’t have shown the Sentry graphically ripping a guy in half!

Makes total sense!

Keep them cusswords censored though, cause that would be crossing a line.

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“Everyone talking about whether or not kids can handle excessive gore misses the point; namely, that kids rarely have control of their own spending money. The parents hold the purse-strings,”

Were you ever a teenager? Did you ever see a movie you shouldn’t of? Buy a cd with a parental advisory sticker? Play an ultraviolent video game? Read a freaky gory novel? My parents excersised super strict control over what I was doing, and I still found ways to get around them and use the money they gave me as allownce to buy stuff that was questionable. Most of the friends I ran with were the same, and Im sure its the same for my kids today. They’ve got it even easier, thanks to the internet, as a couple commenters pointed out above.

Im not sure that parents holding the pursestrings is the deterrent to sales you’re assuming it is. There’s decades worth of pop culture targeted at teenagers, and hated by parents, that proves otherwise.

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Wow. I’m 30, and I don’t think I’m grown-up enough for that kind of thing.

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Yes, kids can get around their parents. To a degree. It still impacts sales. There’s a reason R-rated movies tend to gross less than PG-13, PG, and G movies, which is why pictures like PROM NIGHT get cut to PG-13 for theatrical release, with the cuttings saved for the “unrated” DVD.

And that’s the thing- material like this would easily be an R or NC-17 on film, and though it’s not photorealistic, to my mind the sheer static detail of stuff like this makes it gorier than most of what’s in movies, where it’s blurred by motion and rarely is in front of your eyes for very long. It’s even more extreme than what I can see in an R-rated horror film, except the fringe stuff like Lucio Fulci, but here it’s the mainstream.

If THE DARK KNIGHT can reach audiences and make kajillions and be a totally effective gritty action picture without gore of this degree, why do major Big Two comic events feel the need to constantly go there?

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“Let’s be honest here, if this was a fight scene in Invincible, most of the people complaining would just be jerking off about how awesome Robert Kirkman is.”

Um, no, it’s a little more complex then that. This would be a gory scene in Invincible, but it would cause far less commentary because Kirkman established early on that in his universe a superstrong individual punching a normal results in Very Bad Things. I read his comics, I’m prepared that things might get messy.

Like it or not, Marvel and DC are not only stuck with decades of continuity, but also with a certain expectation among readers as to how the world works. It’s possible to be a comic fan, fully realize that super powered battles should result in rains of organs over several city blocks, but not care because that’s not what you want or expect out of a given publication.

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Those aren’t veterbrae, unless Aries has giant vertabrae bigger than his heart and lungs, those are GRIMDARKDOUBLEPLUSGOOD shoulder pads of some kind.

Remember Liefeld’s law:
(Psi*Mu)/(B*G)= GRIMDARKDOUBLEPLUSGOOD
Where:
psi = Shoulder pads/pouches
mu = mullets
B = blood
G = Guts
and lastly GRIMDARKDOUBLEPLUSGOOD = the only important thing any writer of comicbook stories should be aiming for. Coherent narratives? emotional punch? interesting stories/characters? All worthless if there ain’t some GRIMDARKDOUBLEPLUSGOOD for its own sake.

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A yes, memes instead of actual discussion WELCOME TO POST-4CHAN INTERNET

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Sorry, Fred, but you’re high; those are definitely vertebrae.

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After all that was said here, I can only say one last thing. As regard for me I’ll buy this comic, given a chance, and to the hell the rest of the world. Where i live kids pass their time torturing dogs with fireworks, anyway. So why should a give a dman about them?

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Anyone who tortures dogs with fireworks is clearly going to go far in life and can probably take of themselves.

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It just seems weird that Marvel has decided shiny and heroic is the way to go, but instead of actually doing shiny and heroic stories, they just hit the ugly notes harder now. Almost as if they’re just planning to go back to business as usual, but still want to be able to say “See? 30% more shiny and heroic now.”

The phrase “It’s always darkest before dawn” comes to mind. This is the half-way point of Siege. This is Osborn and his goons at their most powerful, just before Steve Rogers and the real heroes take them down and return things to the “Way It Ought To Be”. This is the demostration of what is wrong just now that has to be addressed. If it isn’t dark, then it misses the point. This isn’t the start of the Heroic Age, this is the end of the Dark Age and that’s an important distinction.

On a different note, the idea that kids are still reading comics and therefore comics should be kid friendly is laughable. The kids are GONE, and while it might be a good idea to try to bring them back, doing so by pissing off your existing audience just leads to bankruptcy. Just ask WCW how that change from Rasslin’ to Sports Entertainment under Russo went.

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Really, though, would moving to a more “PG-13” level of content (apologies for the ratings system analogies but they’re all I can think of at the moment) drive away fans at all?

It’s hard for me to say exactly why comic creators have moved in this direction, apart from a general “darker is better” and “we have to always RAISE THE STAKES” mentality, which I think overlooks the complexity of tone and atmosphere and balance within a story. Or it may just be that they really want to be making horror or crime or gritty action comics, but superheroes are where the money is.

Long story short, I think a lot of good would come of forcing Bendis, Johns, etc. to sit down and watch some of DOCTOR WHO’s best episodes to see how you can do family entertainment without sacrificing creepiness or sadness or drama. Seriously, “The Doctor Dances” would blow Johns’ mind.

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Blink is so damn good.

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After throwing people into the sun, Sentry’s next favourite tactic is tearing up torsos.

So I object on the basis of repetitiveness. None of this ‘oh think of the children’ here.

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If the Sentry has the power of “1000 exploding suns” and visibly glowing eyes, why didn’t he use some sort of “hyper-sun heat beam vision” attack against Ares?

I don’t know, it’s fucking comic books. If I wanted to see halves of human bodies, I’d go to Bagram again.

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I’m pretty sure the Joes and Cobras of the ’80s were just playing the biggest game of paintball ever. Kind of sucked for Cobra because they always had to come up with the scenario and provide the venue–and god knows all those Cobra temples with arenas of ssssport couldn’t be cheap–but on the other hand, they also never had to clean up afterwards.

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